Machine Gun Nest

The Machine Gun Nest shooting range is shown Wednesday afternoon.

A federal grand jury indicted Frederick County Sheriff Chuck Jenkins, 66, of Thurmont, and Robert Justin Krop, 36, of Frederick on Wednesday on charges of conspiring and making false statements to illegally acquire machine guns.

The Frederick News-Post consulted a firearms attorney and reviewed firearms laws to more closely examine the charges against Jenkins and Krop.

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(123) comments

Plumbum

This is what the command staff at fcso must do if Trumpkins ain’t gunna go on leave - they must remove the “integrity driven” slogan. Now.

mrnatural1

Once again, no "+ Add Reply" button...

gabrielshorn2013 Apr 8, 2023 8:36am:

"mrnatural, there were three significant laws preventing access to automatic firearms (and explosives. The first is the National Firearms Act of 1934. It was supposedly a direct response to the gang violence (initiated by prohibition) at the time. It defined which firearms were restricted from ownership, and the taxes and fees due if one owned or transferred such a weapon. The second was the Gun Control Act of 1968

This law removed the requirement to register any pre-1968 machine gun, and if the weapon was not already registered, made it impossible to register, thus the 1968 cutoff. Finally, there was the Firearms Owners Protection Act that made it illegal to transfer any post 1968 machine guns to anybody but government officials."

https://www.atf.gov/rules-and-regulations/national-firearms-act

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Firearms_Act

~~~

Thanks for the links Gabe.

It doesn't matter, but from what I read, the 1968 ruling says nothing about restricting machine gun purchases to those made prior to 1968. Maybe it's the "impossible to register" part that threw me off. It seemed like the purpose of the GCA of 1968 was essentially this:

"Title II amended the NFA to cure the constitutional flaw pointed out in Haynes."

It goes on to say:

"...the requirement for possessors of unregistered firearms to register was removed. Indeed, under the amended law, there is no mechanism for a possessor to register an unregistered NFA firearm already possessed by the person."

That does not sound like a restriction.

Then the Firearms Owners Protection Act says:

"Exceptions were made for transfers of machine guns to, or possession of machine guns by, government agencies, and those lawfully possessed before the effective date of the prohibition, May 19, 1986."

So it sounds like the cut-off is May of 1986. Am I missing something? Maybe I'm confusing "possession" and "date of manufacture"?

I honestly don't care, I'm just curious. If they weren't so expensive, I'd kinda like to own a machine gun -- just to shoot here on our property. In reality, I'm guessing the novelty would wear off pretty quickly.

phydeaux994

Since you seem to know a lot about the MGN that you’ve never been to gab, when you shoot a machine gun in an indoor range, what are you shooting at? A Bullseye? A Russian Soldier silhouette? Hispanics taking potshots at Border Patrol Gunboats? And what happens to all the brass that piles up at your feet? Do you get to keep that as part of the price for rental? I’ve only been to one Shooting Range, when I enrolled our oldest grandson in a learn to shoot program for kids. Those targets weren’t very far away. How far away is whatever you’re shooting at with a machine gun at the MGN gab? I think they said they had one belt fed machine gun mounted on a tripod.

Pro-Choice/Privileged W. Woman

so there are 4 owners of the MGN....at least that is what this 2013 article from the FNP stated

https://www.fredericknewspost.com/news/lifestyle/hobbies_and_recreation/owners-of-fredericks-first-indoor-shooting-range-aim-for-december-opening/article_b7ef97eb-da18-5dcd-96ef-d2802b7243a7.html

Rob and Stephanie Krop and Matt and Hailey Jones....odd that Rob is the only name on the indictment....so you mean to tell me the other owners were not aware of this scheme? So Rob is going to take the fall for all this...how nice of him?? I wonder can the other 3 owners be charged with aiding and abetting a crime? Will they be charged? So many questions I have about why they would risk so much...for so little?

Something is off?

Pro-Choice/Privileged W. Woman

insight into Stephanie....

GF 237 – Girl Crush - Stephanie Krop

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=td8QamAcWYI

Plumbum

Can only charge those who submitted and signed the documents acknowledging everything is truthful , etc

Pro-Choice/Privileged W. Woman

gotcha...that makes sense......in the YouTube video if you listen....OMG they have 4 kids...Stephanie and Rob...and Stephanie is so knowledgeable on gun laws...so well spoken....such a shame the greed got to them...and I learned a lot...about guns and gun laws...very interesting....she makes so many good points about gun laws...and seems to be such an advocate for us women folk...and us being able to, be able to protect ourselves....if we so choose too...such a shame....

wran

Laws and indictments for breaking them are for the little people. The US Attorney for Deleware has been investigating Hunter Biden's banking records going back to 2014 since 2017 and has yet to make a decision whether Hunter Biden did or did not break any laws. Hunter Biden broke federal law when he lied on a Federal Form when he illegally purchased a handgun in 2018. The FBI has forwarded its report to the US Attorney in October 2022. The US Attorney has yet to make a decision whether Hunter Biden did or did not break federal law. Someone in the FBI leaked the fact that its report had been forwarded to the US Attorney because of frustration no action has been taken. Charges of breaking laws should be applied to all.

Hayduke2

Deflection bro!

Greg F

It’s all the pathetic can do to distract from those righteous right winger criminal types…orange ones included.

Plumbum

Hunter Biden? Refresh my memory, when was he elected into office?

threecents

Why is he even a public figure?

public-redux

My favorite aspect of “Hunter Biden” is how the people who bring him up regard him as fundamentally honest. They claim that Joe is “the big guy” who gets 10% (of what is never specified) because it’s supposedly in an email that Hunter wrote. Why they take Hunter Biden at his word is a mystery, given that they also think he is dishonest.

Piedmontgardener

That's not even creative. Going to need some new material, or an entire new house, your ethical considerations on the subject at hand are...challenged, to be kind.

JustTrying

wran, nearly all of my friends are liberals or Democrats. Without exception, every one of us believes that if Hunter Biden were to be convicted of crimes, he should face the consequences. In contrast, nearly every Republican or right winger believes that there should be no consequences for people like Trump, Jenkins, Clarence Thomas, or [insert Republican name here]. We're not a cult on our side of the aisle.

mrnatural1

[thumbup] JustTrying.

That is a major difference between the tribes.

Greg F

[offtopic][offtopic][offtopic][offtopic] get a grip on reality. Whataboutism at its finest.

Plumbum

Must be leave WITHOUT pay. It was his decision to break the law. He put himself in this position. If found innocent - pay back pay. If found / plead guilty - his loss.

Pro-Choice/Privileged W. Woman

plumbum

Agreed Mr. Jenkins needs to exit stage left, like yesterday..he is not a competent leader..as this fiasco has proven..so far we have figured out two really stupid things he has done....

We determined yesterday Mr. Jenkins spoke to the feds without legal counsel present...because he was charged with lying to the feds...what idiot would talk to the feds without legal counsel?

2nd stupid thing was not having demonstrations? all off this would have been avoided had they simply done the demonstrations? again seems like a real easy thing to do...so there is more going on...

And maybe a third if you think about it? what kind of payments did Mr. Jenkins receive for those "law letters"? we both know he didn't write those letters out of the goodness of his heart...there was something in it for him....probably the feds are looking at his bank accounts..you know following the money. probably doing the same thing with the MGN's bank accounts too...the guy from MGN was saying that PNC had closed his accounts with their bank..something to do with the feds investigation...it was on facebook.

So yeah I'm real comfortable having Mr. Jenkins running the sheriff department right now...the longer he says the more intense the "investigating" will become...so we may see some additional stories outlining Mr. Jenkins stupidity...because odds are this isn't the only "stupid" thing he has done...

Pro-Choice/Privileged W. Woman

if they didn't handle the money legally.....wow oh wow...going see a few more indictments I bet.....and I do not see how the MGN could have legally just given Mr. Jenkins money...?

Plumbum

Knowing Trumpkins, I’m certain there was no money involved between him and MGN owner. Trumpkins has that simple good ol’ boy personality and an affection for guns.

The federal judicial system is bogged down as it is, I don’t see this turning into anything more than what it already is. And knowing how federal system works, I’m telling you, there’s a strong chance he swallows his pride and pleads guilty, and everything more or less ends there.

He can plead guilt, which makes him a convicted felon. And most likely won’t get any jail time.

Or, he can plead innocent, risk being found guilty, which then highly likely he’ll get jail time, and be a convicted felon. Either way there’s a high probability he will bear the word “felon” after his name.

Again, don’t get too excited, there’s a strong chance there won’t be a big dramatic courtroom trial. The excitement about everything is that he screwed up AGAIN. Not any surprise to his original co-workers. Not any surprise to many of his deputies that were bullied and driven away by him.

Pro-Choice/Privileged W. Woman

You give Trumpkins way more credit than I do? Let’s hope he didn’t take any money because yeah he can probably just pin everything on the MGN…but if he took any sort of payment his butt is grass…the feds are investigating that now…so we shall see?

Plumbum

Trumpkins struggles with integrity, and it comes from more being ignorant. Hes uneducated, 12th grade diploma, that’s it. These have been many avoidable events from him that have taken place, and they’ve all been subsequent of ignorance, lack of education. He lost his appeals case to santos - a case that existed solely from his lack of education.

The position of top chief, requires high level of education. It’s stuff like this that is the reason why.

Also, multi term elected sheriff. Power gone to his head. And he’s out of touch of reality. He never thought about the what if’s. And he’s just too comfortable in his position. Republicans crying for term limits, maybe they’re right?

LuvFrederick

Plumbum will you help the Sheriff how on government handouts? Hear you are an expert in navigating through entitlement programs.

Plumbum

?

petersamuel

Very worthwhile followup piece, FNP! There's lot still to argue about but the extra info here makes the argument better informed. My sense is both those charged are in serious trouble and probably properly so. Still we have yet to see the evidence supporting the charges, and we haven't heard the defense.

veritas

God bless you, Mr. Samuel, but you are far too fair minded, reasonable and rational to be wasting your time calling for judiciousness from the agitated mob that frequents these response forums. As is evidenced by this particular debate (and regardless of which side/point of view/philosophy we lay claim to) we are sometimes right, but always certain. Good on you, sir, for promoting an equitable point of view; an approach that back in the day was viewed with high regard, but is in today's world considered quaint.

shiftless88

Most of us on here, veritas, have made it clear that we understand that these two are innocent until proven guilty. However, it is also clear that Jenkins, by his own standards, should be stepping back from his job until this clears up one way or the other. And it was also clear to most that by not appearing personally at the press conference he called, he is ducking his responsibility/accountability to the people who elected him.

Plumbum

Because he is an officer of the law, His refusal to take a leave of absence tells us that he’s a politician and nothing more

threecents

V, Charitiable of you to refer to us as an agitated mob, rather than the rabid jackals description from CD. What members of the agitated mob said they are certain that Jenkins in guilty?

phydeaux994

Is Hunter Biden innocent until proven guilty veritas? Someone here pointed out that there seems to be a disconnect depending on the accused among the RRR(RadicalRightRepublicans)/BTT(BullyTagTeam) that hang out here.

DickD

This clears up some of the questions. What we still do not know is what political support was given. It could be almost anything, like recommendations or even money.

Riders of the Storm

It has already been proven that Jenkins did not receive any money to his campaign funds, so yes, it will be interesting to learn if this indictment turns out to be valid, what Chuck got out of the deal.

Pro-Choice/Privileged W. Woman

Let’s hope the Sheriff got a cut of the profits, because I can’t see him doing this out of the goodness of his heart can you?

phydeaux994

Where would we find that proof RotS? Source?

Plumbum

It’s not “proven”, it’s simply not alleged.

gabrielshorn2013

How do you "allege" that something did not happen, plumbum. You allege that something did happen, and then have the burden to prove it. smh...

Plumbum

Gabbs. And it’s not even alleged that he received money, not sure why I wrote that.

kwhite30

Question: When they say MGN was renting out the guns, does that mean people could take them off site, or just use them for target practice at MGN? If the former, does the renter need some kind of special permit or just maybe an I.D?

gabrielshorn2013

@ kwhite30 Apr 7, 2023 10:02am

The rentals took place at the MGN, and the rented firearms never left the premises. This is a common business model for many commercial firing ranges offering the ability to shoot a machine gun. A customer comes in, pays their rental fee, signs all of the forms, listens to a safety presentation, and is allowed to fire the gun under strict supervision. It would be an illegal transfer if the machine gun left the premises. A quick Google search pulls up the following examples:

About 65,600,000 results (0.50 seconds)

https://davenportguns.com/shoot-machine-guns/

https://www.heritageguild.com/Ranges/Machine-Gun-Rentals.aspx

https://machinegunamericaorlando.com/

https://machinegunamericaorlando.com/

https://www.drivetanks.com/machine-gun-shooting/

teadoffinfrederickcounty

Thanks for the links Gabe.

phydeaux994

You don’t have a clue whether those machine guns ever left the premises gab. The owners and the Sheriff and their friends probably took them out to the boondocks to shoot bottles and cans. Quit making stuff up.

gabrielshorn2013

[sleeping][sleeping][sleeping][sleeping][sleeping][sleeping][sleeping]

gabrielshorn2013

Conspiracy theories, phy? Whoda thunk that you're a QAnon follower too. One never knows, do ya.

phydeaux994

I’m in to a little of everything gab. Thanks for asking.

petersamuel

Reading their website, they were renting them to people to use at their indoor range only. Letting people take them away would, I guess, constitute an illegal transfer and they aren't charged with that.

kwhite30

Thank you for the info, Gabriel and Peter.

Greg F

On site only.

Panhead

As Nancy Pelosi says, "Guilty until proven innocent!"

Plumbum

Since the feds have the paper trail, we don’t have to worry about a finding of innocent.

Also, many of you are writing as if there’s gonna be a big trial and all. Most federal cases the Defs plead guilty; it tends to help them avoid jail time.

Plumbum

Anyone wanna form a protest for him to step down this weekend in-front of his residence on Prospect court?

public-redux

Sounds like you don’t want to.

Plumbum

Correct.

gabrielshorn2013

🐔🐔🐔🐔

threecents

All cluck and no beak.

Plumbum

Other priorities, you know, this silly thing called Easter weekend……

schaeferhund

From my reading of this, it seems that if Sheriff Jenkins had staged formal demonstrations, however sincere or insincere, had written the letters himself, and had chosen a different model of gun in one instance, they wouldn’t be guilty of anything. I’m not a lawyer, but that does not sound incredibly severe. These are felonies, I presume. The law seems squishy.

What was the intent? Were these guys buying guns for entertainment and making money (and campaign contribution kickbacks) from renting, or is there a darker purpose? Jenkins was an election denier, and there was an attempted coup. Do we need to look at the Sheriff’s department with suspicion?

Either way, Frederick County made a bad decision reelecting Sheriff Jenkins.

Piedmontgardener

It was the lies that did him in. His partner is in the hot seat to flip on him now. Either way, your conclusion is 100% accurate, he thought he made the rules. Now it's a "government conspiracy". Which won't wash out the allegations, if proven. But they wouldn't be in front of a grand jury in Baltimore without the lying. And that, alone, disqualifies him from continued service in this role - he needs to immediately take a leave of absence and handle his personal business.

Jo and Bob H

not wanting to undermine anyone's confidence, hopes or dreams, inc. our own, but after doing a search for "How lawless and dangerous are 'Constitutional sheriffs?'," it may be too soon to breathe easier.

Jo and Bob H

. . . to breathe easy.

Riders of the Storm

I read yesterday that checking out the MD Campaign Donation site, no money was given to Chuck from the business or the owner. So, we will have to wait as to what proof the Feds have as to how Chuck benefited. Also, did the letters to obtain the guns originate from the Sheriff office, or were they found on the computers that belonged to the owner of the gun range? Will be interesting for sure!

shiftless88

The indictment says that Krop wrote the letters for Jenkins

armillary

Interesting thoughts. I wonder if TMN was open for business on Wednesday, January 6, 2021, and if so were the automatic weapons secured onsite, or were they elsewhere that day?

public-redux

Hoping for an on-point limerick.

mattlemp

Every police department should be looked at with suspicion.

C.D.Reid

Ah, a new day with a new article for the rabid jackals of the I Hate Chuck Cult to continue their little hate fest. [lol]

Plumbum

Big Day!!!

threecents

Our leading hater accusing other of hating again?

C.D.Reid

It just goes to show, threecents, that you people are no better than what you think I am. [lol][lol][lol]

Plumbum

I agree with you David. I been telling that to Gabbs about herself for a few months now

threecents

CD, I called you our leading hater. It agree that it has nothing to do with political persuasion.

public-redux

Another day for conservatives to demonstrate their commitment to the rule of law.

Piedmontgardener

I actually voted for him, not in this election. The no knock raid that killed that kid did me in. But hey, accuse all your favorite hobby horses of political bias, or something. Strangely, this isn't a blue/red game, but that's the only one you know.

Plumbum

OMG you should be ashamed

Piedmontgardener

For what? a vote 16 years back that wasn't educated? Calm yourself.

armillary

CD I just wish this example of the deep state persecution of MAGA hadn't happened this week. We're already nearly drowning in all the MAGA tears after Tuesday!

Awteam2021

Chuck should volunteer to take a leave of absence as he would have for any of his officers if they were under investigation.

newspostreader

Agree 100%. If he were a leader, he would do the right thing and take a leave. He's innocent until proven guilty, so it can even be a paid leave, but he should not be leading the department while this is being sorted out.

Plumbum

Keyword “if”.

Man’s he’s not

NedRyerson

Step down Sheriff Jenkins. It's what you require of your deputies when they're charged with crimes. Walk the talk and lead by example.

C.D.Reid

"Walk the talk?" Just how does one do that?

NedRyerson

Here you go ... https://www.wordnik.com/words/walk%20the%20talk

Plumbum

Agreed. And he can do OnlyFans to generate income while on leave

Plumbum

Mayor of Takoma Park resigned on the spot when he was charged

Plumbum

I think the allegation of MGN offering political support to Trumpkins is moot. But since mention is made, defense attorneys will be blowing that claim to the moon as it’s unproven. Like I said moot because the feds have a strong case as it is

Our4ps

Who is the AG prosecuting the case? I wonder if there’s a political component to this story.

bnick467

Of course there's a political component. An elected politician, Sheriff Chuck Jenkins, is accused of violating federal firearm laws. This is America, where people in power are still required to follow the law.

Plumbum

Aiding and abetting.

Whether it’s machine guns or drugs and prostitution, it’s all relative

Awteam2021

Our4ps, this is a federal indictment so it would be a federal prosecutor assigned to the case.

jsklinelga

Was anyone harmed? Did Sherriff Jenkins monetarily profit by this? Were any members of the FCSO among those that fired the weapons? Someone asked why would the FCSO need automatic weapons, which is an interesting question. What if there was an active shooter or shooters in a public place. Would they be beneficial?

Plumbum

Not how law works.

Awteam2021

Were laws violated for acquiring the machine guns? That’s the question. And the indictment says they did. Jenkins had no comment, even refusing to say ‘not guilty.’

Plumbum

The laws were clearly violated. There are (5) letters bearing his signature, a paper trail!! Self incriminating!!

threecents

Our Sheriff apparently lied so that his friend could make a lot of money. In turn, his friend provided political support. Innocent good ole boy network fun, JSK? This is a man we elected to uphold the law, so it is reasonable to hold him to a high standard. Hopefully, he has a good explanation and will be exonerated.

petersamuel

The whole distinction between machine guns (fully automatic) and semi-automatic is rather trivial. in the hands of the murderous they can both kill terrible numbers of people. I know a guy who served in Iraq with an M4, essentially a fully automatic AR-15. He told me they never used them set on fully automatic because it just meant you'd run out of ammo quicker. It made aimed shots more difficult.

Greg F

Attempted murder is a crime even if the shooter misses.

public-redux

nelga wrote “Someone asked why would the FCSO need automatic weapons,…”

Which suggests he reads the comments despite his protestations to the contrary.

gabrielshorn2013

Nelga doth protest too much methinks.

Plumbum

FNP :

The charges also make mention of chuck being charged with lying to investigators. Your story makes no mention of that.

jsklinelga

If Sheriff Jenkins lied to investigators he should be removed from office. Time will tell if that is fact or just spurious accusations.

Hayduke2

Curious jsk - should he also step down until this plays out ?

Greg F

Defend to the end…we’ll defend your right to be a moron.

DickD

And that could be the most serious charge.

Pro-Choice/Privileged W. Woman

so why didn't they just demonstrate the machine guns? what am I missing? oh because if they had demonstrated the machine guns, the feds would know what machine guns the rental place had because there would be an official record? so they just decided to skip the demonstration part and go right to the illegally renting part....? these two were not what you would call thinkers...oh and who actually purchased these machine guns...it was us the taxpayers right? or did the Machine Gun Nest reimburse us?

how did the feds figure out that the machine guns hadn't been demonstrated? how did they know they were missing some paperwork? so basically the feds thought the machine guns were still in law enforcements hands and did not know the machine guns were being rented out illegally?

is this what you call being a responsible gun owner?

saogirl52

If they had done the demonstration for the FCSO, as stated in the law letter, I don't think there would have been a problem. The MGN purchased the weapons, not the taxpayers. The MGN used the "law letter" to purchase the guns, otherwise the MGN couldn't have gotten the guns to rent out. Somebody, who knew the law letter was bogus, dimed out the Sheriff and/or Krop. It would have been so easy for MGN to demo the guns and document it. They cut corners and are now looking at their lives going down the drain.

Pro-Choice/Privileged W. Woman

A March 2022 letter that Jenkins signed falsely stated that six Sig Sauer 556 machine guns that the Havre de Grace Police Department in Harford County owned would be transferred to The Machine Gun Nest, the indictment says. It was accompanied by an application to transfer one of those guns.

Did the Havre de Grace Police Department agree to transfer the guns?

The Havre de Grace Police Department said it still has the guns.

In a statement sent to the News-Post, Sgt. Daniel Petz wrote that the department “sought approval through the ATF to legally transfer the firearms through an authorized transaction as part of the standard inventory replacement process,” since parts for that model aren’t made anymore.

“During this process, Havre de Grace Police Department was contacted by the ATF and subsequently advised to await further information as the application to process the transfer of the firearms was under further review,” Petz wrote.

See it sounds like the machine guns needed to be transferred legally from the police department to the MGN?

saogirl52

Yes, they do. But by the time MGN tried to acquire those guns, again using a bogus law letter from the Sheriff, the ATF was already aware of the complaint somebody had made about previous purchases. Therefore, the ATF wasn't going to allow MGN to purchase more automatic weapons while the complaint was still being investigated. My question is why would MGN need 10+ fully automatic weapons? Was business that good?

shiftless88

I am guessing that this is the event that got the ATF to start looking into this arrangement

Plumbum

Sao I’ve been in the comments saying for years how stupid and ignorant Trumpkins is. And I have been serious. Hopefully people that doubted me now see I wasn’t blowing smoke

disneynut

👍👍

gabrielshorn2013

[thumbup][thumbup][thumbup] saogirl52. The article describes the law, the circumstances, and where Krop and Jenkins messed up. Had those two just set up a meeting at the MGN, and videoed the Sheriff or other FCSO officials witnessing a demonstration, this would not be an issue. You are correct that because of cutting corners, their freedom and livelihoods are in jeopardy. All because of the lack of a 15 minute demonstration.

DickD

You are right, Gabe and let me apologize for criticize you yesterday. Strange that a simple 15 minute demonstration allows anyone to circumvent the law.

gabrielshorn2013

Not circumventing the law, Dick. That is compliance with the law as written. Maybe not the spirit of the law, but the letter. That is how commercial firing ranges offering the ability to fire modern (made after 1968) machine guns obtain those weapons for their rental businesses.

Pro-Choice/Privileged W. Woman

so simply because they didn't hold a 15 minute "demonstration" they are both looking and some serious prison time....?seems like a stupid thing to circumvent...has to be more to the why...why didn't they do this simple thing? I'm asking a rhetorical question gabe...I don't expect you to answer but you can if you want...

gabrielshorn2013

It's pretty simple really, pickles. Apparently, according to the documents, there was no plan to do the demonstration, which is illegal. A simple, recorded, demonstration of the Sheriff or other FCSO officials witnessing the "demonstration" would have fulfilled the legal requirement, but they got careless. IMHO, I don't believe they thought anyone would check. However, when you request to purchase a belt-fed M249 Squad Automatic Weapon (SAW), claiming it is for on-duty use by the FCSO, people are going to check. Stupidity. Careless stupidity.

Pro-Choice/Privileged W. Woman

so the gabe if I am understanding you correctly..this was more about hiding the machine guns from the public knowing and not the feds? the feds knew that the MGN had these machineguns, but the public didn't..because there wasn't any demonstrations...because yeah someone from the sheriffs' department would have said something to the public.....why didn't Mr. Jenkins want to public to know...probably because the public would figure out the profits ? and wonder why law enforcement needed so many machine guns...?

gabrielshorn2013

Not sure where you got that, pickles. Certainly not from me, and that is not the issue. Why would the public know about any demonstrations? The issue is using the “Law Letter” to obtain the machine guns under false pretenses, claiming to the BATF that the machine guns they sought to obtain were for demonstration purposes. They were not. The BATF approved the purchase based on the false information. The profits, etc. are not relevant to the case, because it is not illegal for the MGN to rent those firearms to customers to fire. That is how most other commercial ranges offering modern (post 1968) machine guns to shoot get theirs too. I provided a list earlier. Today’s article explains the situation much clearer than the previous articles.

Pro-Choice/Privileged W. Woman

Exactly Gabe it isn't illegal to rent machineguns.....agreed the profits are not the point(but if they were making profits from illegally obtained machineguns are the profits legally obtained money)..,...I was thinking out loud trying to figure out a motive for being so stupid and risking so much? Why would they risk so much over such a little issue as holding "demonstrations" ? there must have been some issues with having demonstrations...that is what I am trying to figure out...and you are kinda helping ...?

DickD

Although you are right it would seem such a minor infraction should not be a felony. Now that does not mean I want a lot of rapid fire weapons in the hands of ANYONE,

gabrielshorn2013

Dick, you cannot obtain a pre-1968 automatic firearm without following the procedures outlined in the NFA, which include a complete background check (FAR beyond the standard NICS check), fingerprinting, and payment of the appropriate fees. Because of their low numbers, even if you could find one for sale, the cost is north of $20,000, so not many will be able to afford that. As for post-1969 machine guns, only government entities, and the properly licensed personnel involved on obtaining and transfer of such weapons may possess them. You must apply tot he ATF, and include a "Law Letter" from the government entity seeking to purchase them. Therefore, it is a felony for the average Joe to possess such a firearm. The MGN had all of the required licenses for obtaining them.

Pro-Choice/Privileged W. Woman

The MGN had all of the required licenses for obtaining them and yet....they didn't didn't do one simple thing like have a demonstration.....something is off. Why would they both risk their freedom to not do a simple thing like have a demonstration? Again rhetorical question....and hoping the FNP will do a little more investigating...

so then then feds knew the MGN had the machine guns(because of the "Law Letter") just that they had not been demonstrated? Am I understanding you correctly gabe..?

mrnatural1

Gabriel,

Just curious (and too lazy to do the research) -- in the comments (and elsewhere) I've seen at least 3 different years mentioned as being significant to purchases of machine guns -- 1934; 1968; and 1986.

If you have time, I'm wondering how those dates differ.

Also, why were those specific dates chosen as 'dividing lines'?

Thanks.

gabrielshorn2013

mrnatural, there were three significant laws preventing access to automatic firearms (and explosives. The first is the National Firearms Act of 1934. It was supposedly a direct response to the gang violence (initiated by prohibition) at the time. It defined which firearms were restricted from ownership, and the taxes and fees due if one owned or transferred such a weapon. The second was the Gun Control Act of 1968

This law removed the requirement to register any pre-1968 machine gun, and if the weapon was not already registered, made it impossible to register, thus the 1968 cutoff. Finally, there was the Firearms Owners Protection Act that made it illegal to transfer any post 1968 machine guns to anybody but government officials.

https://www.atf.gov/rules-and-regulations/national-firearms-act

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Firearms_Act

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