Brick Works Site

The site of the former Frederick Brick Works on South and East streets is empty except for a large stockpile of mulch. A developer has proposed a large development for the site.

Members of Frederick's planning staff are scheduled to brief members of the public on preliminary plans for a massive residential and commercial development on the city's east side at a meeting on Tuesday night.

The project proposed by developer Greenberg Gibbons would inclue a mixed-use development with up to 1,260 residential units and up to 130,000 square feet of retail space, plus various open space areas, on nearly 65 acres at the former Frederick Brick Works site bordered by East Street, South Street, and Monocacy Boulevard in Frederick.

Follow Ryan Marshall on Twitter: @RMarshallFNP

Ryan Marshall is the transportation and growth and development reporter for the News-Post. He can be reached at rmarshall@newspost.com.

(143) comments

gary4books

I like the rendering, but wonder how much is real and how much is artistic. On the map, the only open green areas are south of Monocacy and in that area. I do not even see the creek and suspect all of the rendering is over to the east by Monocacy. Can someone see which streets are shown? Or is it more artistry.

Girl No.3

It's past time for a new Mayor and most Aldermen.

cyntiast

Frederick has a pretty serious infrastructure issue that should have been addressed yesterday before allowing all this new development. The roads are clogged all the time, intersections have been made large and dangerous in many new development areas. There is a lack of medical doctors in this area (months to get appointments that used to be within a day or week or so), hospital needs to be bigger capacity, school systems crowded, etc. etc. This dense population housing that is sprouting all over Frederick is not being well thought out as far as impact. The pockets of the few are lined; the rest of us deal with the residual effect.

petersamuel

You assume that stopping development will somehow get city and co government to do more to fix roads, schools etc. On the contrary it would reduce the pressure on them to fix things, and mean there was less tax revenue to finance fixing things. Anyway development is not going to be stopped.

cyntiast

Development needs to SLOW down big time right now. Especially the dense housing. Adding more and more people without the infrastructure being addressed is just compounding the issues.

petersamuel

'Infrastructure,' Cyntiast? I'm sure the developer won't proceed without assurances the development will get water, sewer, electricity, cable etc so that kind of infrastructure will be taken care of. Then there's roads. The slow down in development you suggest wouldn't help with road improvements. On the contrary it would make those improvements seem much less urgent. And there'd be less money for them. So your argument doesn't make any sense.

mrnatural1

Very well said, cyntiast, thank you. [thumbup]

Greg F

We need to do the very same thing Thurmont did. Developers need to get the hint they are no longer wanted here. Tar, feathers and a ride out on rails. That's what is needed for them and some of the politicians who continue to let developers rape the land.

petersamuel

"Rape the land"???? They are building houses for people. People need houses to give themselves shelter. After food and water, and clothes perhaps, shelter is among the most basic of human needs. You vilify people catering to those needs. New devedlopments arre often raw and ugly, OK, many will agree with you. They need more trees, OK. We need more nature preserves, OK.... But to be against development of housing in itself is to express some deep hatred and loathing for your fellow man.

Dwasserba

Wow

I don’t think he was speaking against the people living in tents, living there instead. It’s just…a lot.

mrnatural1

[thumbup] Dwasserba.

When a lifeboat is taking on water, there's nothing wrong with demanding that additional people use another boat.

FredCo and the D.C. metro area are beyond full. They are severely impacted. Other areas are not, and the people there actively seek growth.

Even the Universal Declaration of Human Rights does does not state that there is a right to housing in a specific area. There are large swaths of America (and other countries) that are off limits: public land like parks; BLM land; national and state forests; DoD land; private land that has zoning that precludes development and/or the owner does not want to sell; flood plains, etc.

In short, there are plenty of homes and building lots for sale. No one is suggesting that people live in caves, but they cannot build a home anywhere they want to -- including Frederick County.

There is no absolute right to develop land. Residential sprawl negatively affects existing residents. Their rights matter also. The referendum in Thurmont yesterday shows that more development is not always welcome. That was a blowout by the way -- 834 to 157. Fully 84% of residents voted AGAINST more ugly boxes. In doing so, they protected their right to a reasonable quality of life.

shiftless88

Sure; they are raping that property that used to be a friggin' brick factory and is currently full of mulch. That land has been raped already.

petersamuel

So in your mind, Shiftless, the old brickworks site should have remained in brick-making for ever, and Frederick Brickworks should not have been allowed to close their loss-making operations there and move them to a more suitable site? And anyone who closes a facility and changes the use they make of the land is a 'rapist'? Every land use change is 'rape'?

shiftless88

Peter, I was addressing Greg's comment and agreeing with you. This wasn't a "land rape"; this is a brownfield and not chunk of Catoctin forest.

Dwasserba

We may look back on the days of scenic acres of mulch as a bittersweet memory.

mrnatural1

Great line Dwasserba! [thumbup]

Fleawest

"Rape the land" gimme a break. It's vacant land in an urban area.

Dwasserba

This is already in the city.

Burgessdr

The article doesnt say whether it is already zoned for this high density development, or it will have to be rezoned. That's an important point

petersamuel

Donald: The County's Livable plan and other County plans have Thurmont as a designated growth center so logically they will encourage development around Thurmont if Thurmont City declines to annex the surrounding area and administer it. For all the noise anti-development folks make against specific developments they have not prevailed during the making of these 'comprehensive' or 'longterm' Plans which all realistically accept and provide for growth.

shiftless88

Peter; and for a look at what can happen to developments in unincorporated spaces, look up the water situation in Rio Verde Foothills outside of Scottsdale, AZ. Building outside of a town in order to escape government seems like a good idea to some, until the town cuts off your access to the resources that their citizens pay for.

mrnatural1

Good point shiftless. [thumbup]

Needless to say, water is not as much of a concern here in Maryland, but there have been building moratoriums based on water shortages -- in Mount Airy and Middletown to name two.

In addition, there is the current story about contaminants in the water in one of Myersville's 3 wells. If the water from that well cannot be treated effectively, the town must stop using it -- and the town officials have said there would then not be enough water for the existing users.

By the way -- did you see how one of the guys hauling water to Rio Verde has to put quarters into a slot in order to fill his 6,000 gallon tanker up -- 72 gallons at a time?!

Lake Powell and Lake Mead are at historic lows -- about 25% of capacity -- and they are STILL building houses out there. There are developments that are projected to run out of water in the near future, but even that does not stop them.

shiftless88

mrnatural; in AZ the issue is water, but more broadly it is infrastructure. Power, water, sewer, roads, fire departments, police coverage, pollution and so on. Perhaps there will not be developments right outside of Thurmont, but this is the type of situation being set up there.

gary4books

Some years ago, I had a house built in Laredo, Texas. Part of the process was acquiring water rights. And Laredo is on the Rio Grande. Water is a limiting factor.

Burgessdr

Peter, my comment was about Frederick Brick Works zoning

petersamuel

Apologies misunderstood, Brickworks site is zoned MU or mixed use, so they are allowed a mix of residential, commercial etc. as they're proposing.

phydeaux994

Thurmont’s Growth Plan 2040 already had that property and lot’s more zoned high density residential. That’s why their Town Council approved it, because it conformed to the Growth Plan. And the planning for the annexation had been negotiated with the Town for 4 years with no opposition before it was approved. The Mayor said his family got threats when it was approved. One of the pictures shows multi-family buildings adjacent to the property to be annexed. Thurmont isn’t afraid of high density housing, they are afraid of what lower cost housing might bring.

petersamuel

Someone familiar with the Thurmont annexation proposal needs to look at the County zoning: https://gis-fcgmd.opendata.arcgis.com/pages/map-atlases

Burgessdr

Peter, so they dont need to rezone?

petersamuel

I don't think they need to rezone, no. One notion going the rounds is that they are not ready to start construction any time soon but that they want to take advantage of the MU zoning to get site approval now before a form based code (FBC) takes effect. The FBC apparently might constrain them more than the MU zoning they have. I don't know how true that notion is -- just that it's in circulation among the planners.

Plumbum

Let’s ask residents take this to referendum if approved like Thurmont did

Greg F

Developers should be shaking in their boots after that vote. They know we'd give them the same. 1260 houses each with no less than one car. Just how many cars can go up East Street through Shab Row by the MARC station in that ONE LANE each way? It's already a clogged nightmare. 1260-2000 cars are not going to help any of that. Any decision on that parcel needs to deal with Shab Row and why it is still one lane in each direction from the post office northward. Until that's fixed, nothing new should be put anywhere nearby. Add the new development on the north end of East Street an we'll see times to get north/south go to an hour. I'm out.

TrekMan

Greg - you are right, it's pure idiocy. O'Connor is in the developers pocket I'm sure!!

Dwasserba

Oh that’s not nice

Dwasserba

Pretty much this describes it

mrnatural1

Exactly right Greg. [thumbup]

mrnatural1

Excellent idea Plum! [thumbup]

In fact, all proposed developments should trigger a referendum.

mrnatural1

Several comments suggest that population growth is inevitable, and there are only two (2) choices:

1) Development in the city.

2) Development in the county.

Of course there is a 3rd choice: No (or severely restricted) growth.

We know that landowners and developers already have numerous restrictions on them. The county already prohibits development (or certain types of development) in much of the county. The point being that development is not "inevitable". Some zoning changes could put the brakes on it.

I'm sure that's easier said than done, but zoning changes happen all the time. It's highly unlikely of course, but theoretically the county could using zoning to stop all development that has not already substantially begun. Of course the next development friendly council could revert to the current zoning, or worse.

In addition to actions by the county gov't there are a few things that can be done to slow the sprawling ugly box farms:

* Encourage more major public and private employers to follow the lead of the many forward-thinking corporations that have located outside impacted urban areas. Reducing the number of jobs in the D.C. area will reduce demand for housing in FredCo.

* Raise the impact fees so that they truly cover ALL costs associated with residential development, both up front, and in the future. If developers had to pay their own way instead of shoving costs off onto us existing residents, the increased cost of their housing would encourage development elsewhere.

* Raise awareness of the TRUE cost of commuting -- about $0.60 (or more) per mile (per the IRS and CR); plus Metro fares and parking (if applicable); not to mention the stress; risk of an accident; possible tickets; aggravation; and last but certainly not least -- TIME. Time that could be spent with family and friends; on leisure activities and hobbies, etc. Just the financial cost can add up to $1,500 per month or more. That's about $2,000 before taxes -- $2,000 that could be put toward a mortgage (assuming the payments are mostly interest).

In many cases that "cheaper" house in FredCo is actually more expensive.

Also, I-270 traffic congestion will continue to get worse. At a certain point, people will begin to bail out of FredCo because their commute will have become unbearable. Then we will see the steady decline of home values and development will stop -- a victim of unrestrained growth.

joelp77440

Are you from Frederick County/City?

phydeaux994

But what gets me mrnatural1, is that all of your heartfelt opposition is expressed here on the FNP Opinion Forum where 6 people might see it, and after the fact. You can’t stop growth, many have tried, but you can PLAN orderly, reasonable growth. But a Plan has to be in place when the developers come knocking so you can defend the Plan and satisfy the landowner and developer as well as the residents. The landowner and developer will needlessly be dealt a financial blow in this case because it took them 4 years to get here and then get shot down.

rogy

Since the southern end of that property is only 3,100 ft. from the quarry, they really MUST include the word "Sinkhole" somewhere in the development's name. It would have such a nice ring to it. Something like "Sinkhole Manor" with a sales motto like "Take a walk on our wild side!", or "Live life on the VERY edge!", or "Sink your savings into Frederock!", or possibly "Rest in Peace tonight AND every night hereafter!"

Frederick will surely make the national news someday with this venture. Caveat Emptor!

mrnatural1

Hilarious rogy! [thumbup] [lol]

shiftless88

Have the businesses that surround the quarry been impacted by sinkholes?

doitforahobby

The Farmer's sold us out to the developers for that almighty $$$.

petersamuel

Doitfor..: "sold us out"? We're not a feudal society with farmers bound to their land. Farmers in America are not serfs. The land is deployed in its most productive use. If they find they can earn more by selling their farmland for housing and investing the proceeds elsewhere, then that's because farming is less productive on that land than housing. Apparently you'd have us go back to medieval arrangements keeping people on their farms regardless -- because you think it's charming.

gabrielshorn2013

If course! Wouldn't you?

Dwasserba

😆

mrnatural1

doitforahobby,

Our place is zoned RC so it cannot be developed (I think we can only build one more house). However, even if it were suddenly zoned for high density residential development we would not sell, because a) we like it here, and b) we do not want to to responsible for the permanent destruction of part of Catoctin Mountain.

That said, I don't blame farmers and other landowners for selling to developers. I wish they wouldn't, but they are playing by the rules.

We might wish that a couple would not sell their farm, but it's unrealistic to think that everyone is going to turn down millions of dollars and continue milking cows.

The rules and the zoning need to change so that people are not put in that position to begin with.

Dwasserba

👍🏻mr natural

Dwasserba

Farmers like to retire too.

mrnatural1

Like I said in the other comment, I do understand someone selling their property if they receive a legitimate offer. They are not doing anything illegal, and if it gives them a comfortable retirement, great.

The thing is, the development jackpot only affects a tiny percentage of farmers and other landowners. If the county council were to place a zoning overlay on all of FredCo that precluded further development, the vast majority of landowners would not even know the difference.

No landowner can assume or expect that their land will be up-zoned, and they will get a huge payday and be able to retire to the Bahamas. Speculating on a parcel of land is different from investing in (say) low/no cost index funds. Expected up-zoning may never happen. Land zoned residential or commercial might be down-zoned -- as happened with land along US 15 a few years ago -- but the county gov't will not be hacking into grandpa's Vanguard account.

If -- for whatever reason -- the landowner is never able to sell for an inflated price, that is not the same as 'stealing their retirement funds'.

That said, if a person/couple owns land that has been zoned residential for decades, and for years they have been planning to sell to a developer -- then out of the blue the county wants to down-zone their land, it seems fair to give everyone affected a reasonable amount of time before the zoning change takes effect. That's what was done with the land along highway 15. I believe owners were given one year.

LuvFrederick

This is a done deal folks. Money always win's the day.

TrekMan

I don't go downtown now as it is because of the overcrowding. C'mon out to Christopher's Crossing and check out the traffic from Cannon Bluff, Kellerton, Tuscarora Creek, Cloverridge, and wait until those apartments across from Tuscarora Creek get inhabited on Walter Martz - it's time to stop this madness!! And yes, I blame the old county commissioners on this mess!!

Burgessdr

This is Frederick City not county. Facepalm

TrekMan

Hello Ding Dong - all those places are in city except CloverHill!! Look it up!!

Dwasserba

I don’t think people living downtown get out to the far reaches. It takes your breath away to see. And don’t forget off Shookstown and Baughman’s Lane and over Waverly way, whew

shiftless88

Where do you all EXPECT new people to live? Population is growing. Where do YOU think these developments should be built? It is easy to just whine, but that is not constructive. Either we infill cities or we destroy farmland. Choose.

gabrielshorn2013

[thumbup][thumbup][thumbup] shiftless! People have to live somewhere. This is infill, which is much more preferable than sprawl. Put in some professional office space in addition to the retail. The tech industries are growing in this area, including biotech and biopharm.

Plumbum

I’m not so much anti-development. I dislike the mass density of these proposed communities.

gabrielshorn2013

That's what infill does, Pb, replacing lower density development with higher density development. Building up rather than out as it were. If you wish to maintain green space and rural areas, it's the only choice.

TrekMan

But the traffic will be ruthless Gabe. The infrastructure stinks down there.

gabrielshorn2013

Agreed, Trek. Driving into town from that direction is a mess during rush hour.

SwiftyG

With the continual "rubber stamping" of new projects these days, we need a building moratorium in Frederick County to slow things way down. New proposed housing at the former bowling alley site, at the Rt. 40 shopping center, and now on this corner at East Patrick Street? Come on planning commission! How many new developments do we need?? We are losing the character of the county! In addition, any construction that takes place should be required to replicate historic architecture instead of the brick monstrosities that were previously approved for downtown!

Plumbum

And everything is max density.

Also, the fbw site is perfect for a hotel. That’s where the plamandoons hotel should be.

And the FNP building made into something nice.

Dwasserba

I like that building.

mrnatural1

[thumbup] Swifty.

petersamuel

Swifty, you ask: "How many new developments do we need?" That's a question for people looking to live here in new housing. Will they be able and willing to pay sufficient in the purchase price or the rent to cover the costs of the housing in those developments. That's the only objective measure we have of housing need. Planning commissions don't in a free society declare whether a development is 'needed' let alone declare 'moratoriums.' They attempt to forecast how much housing will be built in the market interplay of housing buyers and housing developers and to administer zoning to channel it into suitable areas along with the public utilities needed. They have no authority to decide how much housing gets developed. Thank goodness.

Dwasserba

Which “monstrosities” are already downtown?

Piedmontgardener

This parcel has long been slated for the next piece of Frederick. Let's make sure it's done right, with public access points, paths and weighted heavily on renewables and landscaping.

Dwasserba

And maybe a highway that swoops over it for everybody else.

gary4books

Highway 40 ought to "swoop" enough for most people. And better access than many other locations get in the city limits. https://goo.gl/maps/MhJyMtQZ4a4T4Cwk9

Sycamore1041

Note this sentence: "Any project within walking distance to downtown needs to be complementary to downtown, and include walkable and bikeable features, O'Connor said." If you want a good sense of what kind of "bikeable features" he means, check out Baughmans Lane between Key Parkway and Shookstown Road and then think about whether you want those kinds of "features" in this area.

Dwasserba

Bike lanes end awkwardly here.

Frederick4ever

I am not sure if this is a good idea... More traffic and 1260 housing units seems a lot in the proposed area. Plus, I thought this area was a brownfield. Local Environmentalist should check this out on behalf of the community.

mrnatural1

Good point Fred. [thumbup]

public-redux

“Brownfield” is an exceedingly broad term. It need not include any contaminant or hazardous substance. A “brownfield” can be anything that isn’t a “greenfield” which is land that has never had any development at all.

Dwasserba

Terrifying

mamlukman

First, what's in all those green bags???

But more seriously, how much development is there in Frederick County? The FN-P, candidates for office, the general public talk about "development" constantly. But I'm guessing almost no one actually knows the numbers.

I'd like to know (looking at you FN-P and / or county council) exactly how many developments are currently under construction; where they are; and how many housing units in each. Most people drive the same route to restaurants, grocery stores, job, etc. So they see a handful of construction sites at most. This summer my wife and I did some traveling around the county. Everywhere we went we saw massive developments going up. We had absolutely no idea of the scale of all this development.

To form any sort of valid opinion on this, you need actual facts--numbers. How about it?

Plumbum

Mulch. Grant county mulch company (I think)

mrnatural1

Excellent observation and a very reasonable request mamlukman. [thumbup]

Fredginrickey

There needs to be an independent Architectural Board and Review to approve all new building, especially in downtown Frederick.

Charleston SC and Savannah preserved the historic feel of their cities by restricting growth and approving esthetically pleasing architecture.

Charleston unfortunately has a new corrupt mayor, and ugly box buildings are ruining the city landscape, Frederick still has time to stop ugly growth.

Burgessdr

The Frederick Historic Preservation Commission lready exists

Fredginrickey

Do they have veto power?

lewisantq

The Frederick Historic Preservation Commission has no role in this project. Even if it did, our pro-development politicians would ignore their findings as they have on many recent projects. Historic preservation and green space requirements are either waived or ignored in the race for more income for the city. I agree with Fredginrickey. Bob Lewis

shiftless88

Historic preservation drives me nuts. An extra layer of red tape with little to no benefit.

Fredginrickey

Shifty, the benefit is a beautiful city.

Like it or not, Frederick has become a tourist destination, throwing up junky buildings diminishes it’s appeal to visitors and residents.

Just look at the horrendous apartments being built on Monocacy Blvd., they look like smaller post WWII Italian tower blocks, hideous.

shiftless88

Fredginrickey; but this is not on the tourist trail.

Fredginrickey

Shift it’s at the entrance to the city, and it’s ugly.

No need for horrendous architecture

FrederickFan

This project needs to include a site for a school. City officials keep forgetting about schools and parks. This is a location prime for development. Do it right!

Frayou

Unfortunately, the financial burden for schools have always been with the County Government not the Cities. This is why they have little resistance to annexation properties which border them. Former Commissioner Gardner spent much of her beginning career attempting to legislate this problem. Unfortunately, after she, Commissioners Gray & Thompson did manage to pass Controlled Growth policies for the county, in comes the Young Administration who throws it out the window, setting up current mess for next 20+ years.

mrnatural1

That's what I call the 'ratchet effect' Frayou.

Good people, like those you mentioned, can do their very best to preserve what's left of Frederick County, but then the next CE and county council can obliterate all of their good work.

It's worse than the usual political pendulum because there is of course no way to reverse sprawl. So even if we were to have a staunch no growth county gov't for a few years, sooner or later some developers and/or developer friendly candidates will get elected and the destruction would begin again.

Eventually, the U.S. population will begin to decline (like some other developed countries) but until that happens we can:

* Encourage more major public and private employers to follow the lead of the many forward-thinking corporations that have located outside impacted urban areas. Reducing the number of jobs will reduce demand.

* Raise the impact fees so that they truly cover ALL costs associated with residential development, both up front, and in the future. If developers had to pay their own way instead of shoving costs off onto us existing residents, the increased cost of their housing would encourage development elsewhere.

crhoderick

When are we going to stop building all of these new houses, townhouses and apartments. Our schools, roads and law enforcement cannot keep up with the additional people, traffic. and crime. We are starting to look like another Montgomery County and the crime is constantly increasing as it would with the population increasing. Frederick County School Board is constantly building new schools which are usually close to being overcrowded before they open or are already overcrowded. Please stop and think about what you are doing to Frederick City and Frederick County.

mrnatural1

Great comment crhoderick. [thumbup]

Plumbum

The area doesn’t need retail jobs.

The area needs government jobs.

Let’s look at stafford county Va. it was a rural community. Then, the federal govt put in military facilities. Now today, I’m guessing 1/2 of the population works at these military facilities in stafford co.

Cutesie clothing and candle stores that can’t find workers because they pay $14 / hr, isn’t What we need. We need employment with salaries starting at $100k.

Frayou

There’s been history with some major sink holes bordering around this area, keeping in mind the quarry on the other side of 70 remains active. Will there be drilling to insure against potential sink hole activity?

mrnatural1

Good question Frayou. [thumbup]

I'm curious as to whether drilling can guarantee there will be no more sink holes.

public-redux

What did people was going to happen — or should happen — with land adjacent to downtown, walking distance to MARC, and a stone’s throw from 2 interstates?

Surely not mulch storage.

Greg F

Imagine living in those...the highway noise. Yikes. No builder builds with sound proof windows unless you custom build. No builder puts soundproofing in walls unless you request in a custom build and are there to inspect they actually did it.

public-redux

So you think the highway traffic will flow freely? Plenty of capacity? Good. Some of the naysayers here seem to think traffic will be congested.

Dwasserba

😆 public The intersection at E Patrick can already be tons of fun for visitors encouraged to enter the city by this route.

public-redux

D, The intersection at E. Patrick is not part of any highway that I know about.

gabrielshorn2013

GregF, what do builders in DC, NYC, etc. do to mitigate sound from the streets?

mrnatural1

Exactly Greg. [thumbup]

Very good point.

Dwasserba

🫤Someone please tell public I was reacting to his reference to “congestion” (at E. Patrick/East Street) and not the word “highway” Thanks

Burgessdr

Just wow.

niceund

Frederick: You've lost your collective minds. Can you think of nothing but the almighty dollar?

mrnatural1

Good point niceund. [thumbup]

Greed is definitely a major factor. What makes it even more sad is that it is also extremely short-sighted. There may be money from impact fees up front, but development almost never pays for itself in the long run.

It's like the goldrush of the mid 19th century. Prospectors were focused on the gold. The land was raped; gold was removed; and toxic mine tailings and dangerous mine shafts were left behind for others to deal with.

Development is the same -- a few people make a huge amount of money and walk away to create more ugly boxes somewhere else, while the rest of us are left with insane traffic congestion; kids going to class in unsecure trailers because their schools are overcrowded; unfunded infrastructure needs; and responsibility for maint. & repairs of that infrastructure for the foreseeable future.

As Lenny Thompson used to say, "When developers win, YOU LOSE!"

Plumbum

Retail = 15$ purr hour jobs

jamesnee

The entire infrastructure should include Hydrogen so that the development is cutting edge, as opposed to becoming soon obsolete. A project of this size could have central Hydrogen boiler systems. This project should be built as to have a net zero carbon footprint.

gabrielshorn2013

Geothermal works too, and is a known commodity. Heat sinks below ground, and solar on the roofs to operate the recirculation pumps.

gary4books

gab = A good direction to go. Given good storage, homes can be self sufficient or close enough to have our current power grid last without much further expansion.

zipper_buddy

I'd be the first to say my knowledge is limited, but initial thoughts on this new residential and retail: where do these people work? DC or Montgomery? Somehow I doubt there will be much affordable housing for employees in the retail sector. Along with greenlighting of development, I'd hope to see redoubled efforts to attract employers to Frederick with the "good-paying jobs" one hears about.

Greg F

Don't like the plan at all. Whatever happened to that area being considered the gateway to downtown and it should look fantastic? Not that I want industry to be at that gateway, but that many houses crammed there? It will look like the area right off exit 15 in Germantown if you want an example. That area is already not quite as busy as promised. Looks ok, but all cookie cutter crap. That said, there should be plenty of opportunities here to design in geothermal, wind, solar and walkability to downtown and with enough higher incomes s to have people in there that can afford the area. As for retail incomes buying homes in downtown areas these days, that hasn't been the case in a very long time.

Frayou

Does anyone sense local politicians and development leaders may be getting ahead of themselves? I remember when the Carroll Creak Flood Control Project was completed with nothing but concrete exposed. The economy was not good and downtown was dead. Most of the retailers were focused on the Golden Mile. It took 30-40 years going forward for Carroll Creak and greater downtown area to development to current levels. Meanwhile the Francis Scott Key Mall progressed while the Golden Mile slowly regressed to current. Suggest local politicians & developers be careful they don’t overdevelop greater downtown to the point of finding a lot of vacant retail buildings sitting around. Similar to the former Golden Mile. Suggest being cautious what you WISH for local leaders.

AOC

On good side, it will force the homeless tent city to relocate. Hmm, Baker Park seems like a possibility.

Plumbum

Urbana

Plumbum

And frederick city is rubber stamping approval for everything, worse than Kirbie and Ba’Lane and Billie.

dremsberg

20 residents per acre not even taking into account retail space and open space - so in reality more. Pretty dense. What schools are impacted? Traffic arteries? In an area worth re-developing but does this make the most sense? We continue to grow housing but not business. This will fuel service business but like most Frederick county growth a large number will likely hold jobs outside the county. Would rather see county push for more economic base over just population growth. We are too dependent on jobs outside our area.

Plumbum

Similar to that of P.G. County

Greg F

That road at the roundabout is already too busy. As it goes downtown into the bottleneck by the MARC station, it is going to create an endless nightmare. It already takes 30 minutes to get from the north side down toward the mall. This will make it not even something to consider any more. I guess I'm kinda NIMFY on this since it literally is the front yard to Frederick. Make it a friggin' superior park or something where it now is a bunch of bags of mulch.

mrnatural1

Good idea Greg. [thumbup]

A park would be much better than a depressing cluster of ugly boxes -- along with thousands of additional cars on our roads and streets, and thousands more kids in FCPS.

mrnatural1

[thumbup] dremsberg.

public-redux

Good area for a sizable project. Easy access to downtown, major traffic arteries, and the retail areas south of 70.

Plumbum

Try navigating an ambulance through the traffic mess and then get back to us

public-redux

No need to project your poor driving skills onto others.

Plumbum

Lame

public-redux

No, you're mistaken.

Greg F

Try navigating from there up the road past Shab Row now in any car at any time. It's already a mess. Whoever develops that should pay to move all the buildings on Shab Row back far enough to make 4 lanes possible so all the traffic generated can get around better.

mrnatural1

[thumbup] Greg.

Plumbum

Not mistaken. I am licensed to drive larger and heavier than you are, and I do

gabrielshorn2013

and that means what, Pb?

public-redux

At the very least it means the leaden one is mistaken about what I was referring to.

gabrielshorn2013

Agreed, public. The leaden one has admitted to talking on the phone and texting while driving their "big rigs" in the past under their previous pseudonym, and thought that it was OK to tailgate and ignore traffic laws. I think that justified your earlier comment.

Plumbum

Incorrect Gabs.

If you’re going to join in, at least have your facts solid.

You have this thing of taking jabs at me, and when you do, you’re always way off base. When I say you’re wrong, you then mock me, and behave even worse. Typical GOP follower.

Now you’re saying I drive big rigs while talking on the phone. Never did that as you stated. I do not drive for a living, and I didn’t say that, either. And you didn’t say that I drive for a living, but your wording implies as such.

I commented on the case involving Jack Laforce illegally dumping on property after the bank foreclosed. You went on a mission telling the class that I dump illegally. Because I participated in comments on a story.

You claimed you have my pic from a company website.

You claimed that a sheriff had arrested me and that I had a run-in with him, that went fairy tale on with you for a long time.

You threw the first stone today. And you are incorrect. After you just schooled someone about commenting facts. The who what were when how you lectured them on. And then YOU turn around and do to me what he got you all bent out of shape for. Even educated people (YOU) have their days where they feel sad and down, and try to get others to feel their misery.

public-redux

gabe, my comment was entirely unrelated to driving.

gabrielshorn2013

My, my, my, looks like I touched a leaden nerve. Are you now denying that as your former alias, KellyAlzan that you repeatedly claimed to talk on the phone or text while driving large vehicles down the highway? You most certainly did, right here in the comments section. Denying what is in black and white? How Trumpian and MAGA of you. Did you not just say you are licensed to drive such vehicles on Jan 17, 2023 at 12:44pm? Yep, sure did. If you are going to lie about my statements, at least pull up the reference. You strongly defended the practice of dumping construction refuse in pits, claiming it is common practice. It isn’t, and that is pollution, and several commenters called you on it. You were asked if you still did it, since it is such a common practice. Your response should have been, “no, and I never have”. Regarding the sheriff again, your personal vendetta against the man was so blatant back then. You were asked what he arrested you for to get such a reaction. Your response should have been “No, I have never been arrested by the FCSO”. You can change your alias oh leaden one, but you cannot change your record.

Dwasserba

Oh🫤I thought you were joking

gary4books

[thumbup][thumbup]

Plumbum

ENOUGH IS ENOUGH

Guy T. Ashton

All piling out of their houses onto East Street. Sheer genius.

Greg F

Can you imagine the highway noise there? It's a Jake Brake party time 24/7/365.

mrnatural1

Guy,

I'm sure very few of them will have cars -- they will probably walk/jog/bike everywhere... [wink]

It's amazing what people will promote (or turn a blind eye to) when there is money involved.

phydeaux994

Get your group together and go to the meeting. Only the citizens can stop it, or at least mitigate it. Ask Mr. McKay how to do it. You’re the Committee Chairman.

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