Sabillasville prayer

Sabillasville Elementary School principal Kate Krietz addresses students, staff and guests at the school’s recent 50th anniversary program. After the presentation of the flags, Pledge of Allegiance and national anthem, an invocation was given by the Rev. Bob Kells, Weller United Methodist Church, Thurmont, seated near the window.

A prayer delivered to the Sabillasville Elementary School student body at a school program last week conflicted with the district’s policy on religious expression, Frederick County Public Schools officials said.

The school system responded to the incident after an inquiry from The Frederick News-Post.

At Sabillasville’s 50th anniversary celebration last Wednesday, Bob Kells, pastor from Weller United Methodist Church in Thurmont, led an invocation at a school-wide assembly. Kells had been invited by organizers — made up of Sabillasville Elementary staff, administration and alumni — to speak at the event. Frederick County Board of Education President Brad Young and Superintendent Terry Alban were also in attendance.

Kells invoked the name of God multiple times in his prayer to an audience of students, school officials, parents and community members. The Frederick News-Post was present for the event.

“As we have celebrate these first 50 years of Sabillasville Elementary School, we ask you, oh God, to grant us renewed energy in fulfilling in the tasks of education — teaching, learning, applying what is taught — so that all who come here may continue to grow in knowledge, wisdom and character for the benefit of our society. May they, and we, belong to greater service to our community, our nation and your world. All this, we pray to the glory of your name,” Kells said in the invocation.

School spokesman Michael Doerrer said the invocation was a mistake and not in line with the school system’s policy on religious expression.

That policy states that no school system employee may encourage religious activities.

The committee that planned the event was attempting to follow the same program as the school’s groundbreaking and 25th anniversary celebrations, both of which incorporated an invocation, Doerrer said.

Doerrer said he did not know if the principal, Kate Krietz, was aware of what the pastor would say in the invocation.

In her introduction of the pastor, Krietz highlighted Kells’ role as a volunteer for the school, and so she may not have known what Kells would say in his remarks, Doerrer said. Kells and other Weller United Methodist Church representatives volunteer at the school weekly, Krietz said in her speech.

Doerrer refused to contact Krietz to verify whether she was aware of details of the invocation.

Krietz declined a phone interview through a Sabillasville Elementary staff member.

After the Wednesday event, Krietz had told The News-Post that the invocation was included because the anniversary was a special event.

Kells said in a phone message that he was unaware his remarks were not in line with the policy.

“My objective was to prepare some remarks in the invocation accessible to people of many, many faith traditions,” Kells said. “I’d like to believe that I accomplished that.”

The school system has received no complaints regarding the invocation, Doerrer said.

Doerrer declined to discuss whether anyone at the school would be disciplined for infringing on the religion policy.

Mark Pritts, an elementary instructional director, will reach out to Krietz to ask about the planning of the event, Doerrer said.

The school system provides ample training opportunities and guidance to principals to teach them about school policy, Doerrer said. He could not identify if, when or how principals received particular training on the religion policy.

The policy, adopted in 2007, allows for students to engage in individual or group prayer and engage in religious discussions during the school day. Students may read a Bible, or other faith-based texts, for example, or say grace before meals, or pray prior to a test.

School principals, however, may impose rules on student activities that they feel constitutes harassment of an individual or particular group of students.

School employees may not solicit or encourage religious activities or participate in them with students.

Follow Jeremy Bauer-Wolf on Twitter: @jbeowulf.

(173) comments

Kentucky Rain

I'm wondering why some are so threatened by the mention of God, or a prayer being offered. I am not one of these people who necessarily supports teacher led prayer every morning, but to have a pastor offer a pray of thanks on a special occasion is, in my view, entirely appropriate.

bosco

And I wonder why some think they have the right to offer a prayer as part of and in a taxpayer supported public function. It's not a religious observance. All would do well to read what's written in the book of Matthew. Chapter 6 regarding public prayers.

public-redux

I wonder why god-botherers are so determined to be law-breakers. Can you give me a clue?

public-redux

Supporters of the event at the school have put forward two arguments.

1. The remarks about God were so generic as to be meaningless. No specific deity was implied by the term "God" and everyone could interpret it as they saw fit.

2. The US is a traditionally religious (meaning "Christian") nation. Omitting any mention of a (Christian) God is an assault on religious liberty. The minister prayed to his God and that is a good thing.

Obviously, the two arguments cannot both be true. So why don't the advocates of these two points of view ever take each other to task? My surmise is that the proponents of argument 1 are doing a wink, wink, nudge, nudge routine.

public-redux

(Continued)

The argument 1 folk don't actually believe in generic prayers to generic gods. Their argument is insincere.

The advocates of argument 2, meanwhile, simply don't understand the law. If they did, they would be making argument 1 because they would know that argument 2 loses in court every time. But at least they are sincere.

AstuteBusinessWoman

A special event was held to celebrate 50 years of our smallest elementary school. A volunteer, and pastor who was invited gave what appears to be a one minute invocation. He used the word God in general terms and mentioned energy, teaching, knowledge, community, and society. His very shortt statement appears very general.
Congratulations to Sabillasville Elementary and I apologize for those who have attempted to marr your excitement and pride over a wonderful milestone for Frederick Counties little gem. Last I checked saying the word god was not forcing any religion on anyone! He did not pull out a bible and start teaching a Sunday school class for goodness sake, people. Let - it-go!!!

bosco

How about if he had invoked the blessing of Allah, Lord Krishna, or Lord Vader?

Religious prayers have no place in a forum supported by my tax dollars.

bosco

There's an LTE in today's print edition supporting the decision to have a Christian prayer (my words) at the school function. The writer says there needs to be more religion in America and for those who don't believe, don't take it away from those who do. To the writer, I say that's not the point. You can believe whatever you want, just don't proselytize your religion in a taxpayer supported forum - such as the public schools. And to the fervent Christians with their knickers in a twist over the subject, I remind them that their god issued instructions to them regarding prayer in the book of Matthew, Chapter 6, wherein it says:

5 And when thou prayest, thou shalt not be as the hypocrites are: for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and in the corners of the streets, that they may be seen of men. Verily I say unto you, They have their reward.

6 But thou, when thou prayest, enter into thy closet, and when thou hast shut thy door, pray to thy Father which is in secret; and thy Father which seeth in secret shall reward thee openly.

7 But when ye pray, use not vain repetitions, as the heathen do: for they think that they shall be heard for their much speaking.

The word of the lord.....

MAVRICKinc7

Or the word of MAN that has been transcribed for thousands of years and yet cherry picked by those followers who can't see beyond their own faith PARAMETERS and lying to themselves by OMMISSION and have done so thoughout civilized history.

Their will ALWAYS be those, by their own established convictions that know nothing of State matters and IGNORE the long term consequences of tinkering with the minds of our youth at such an early stage in their lives, that the grownups ACCEPT within the confines of their own religious bigotry and nothing to do with the future choices their offspring will eventually make, through strategic manipulation of Bible verse that HYPOCRITES are most enamored with and have been for centuries, generations and generations to come.

Isn't this the same reasoning and foundation of the LIE we continue to tell ourselves and abide by WITHOUT QUESTION? Isn't that who WE really are, except another herd of cattle being driven by the latest cattle call that our religious leaders continue to nurture through FALSE interpretations and OMMISIONS of what the Bible provides, that religious scholars continue to use against our own ignorance and confined to the LIE we tell ourselves, and have for centuries?

I believe in FAITH but only that commanded by my own tenets of what God gave us in the first place; FREE WILL. What ever the reason USED by religious advocates to distort that proposition is a burden they will have to bear, even if it amounts to nothing more than another LIE we continue to tell ourselves from one day to the next.

ClareS

I agree. It's a public school for children of all religions (or lack thereof). I'm OK with a moment of silence, but that is it. If parents want prayer in school, they should send their children to a private religious school. It was not a good idea for a public school to bring in a pastor as a guest speaker without making sure his presentation was entirely secular.

ClareS

The school was out of line. If they brought in pastor of a church, they should have informed this pastor to not lead prayer or make references to religion. It's NOT appropriate in a public school. That said, what he said was not overly "offensive" even to my atheist friend whom I showed the article to. If this is the worse thing that happens in that school they should be so lucky.

fireandfarm

After about 70 comments, I gave up, so pardon this one if it is redundant. Back in Elementary School, in the '70's I had to listen to Greek Mythology. My mother just about had a fit. As a kid, I put up with it, learned about it, and pretty much ignored it. Now I can't answer a lot of questions on Jeopardy, but don't really care. I have Catholic friends, attend weddings and funerals, and as a Methodist, I'm not fully accept their beliefs, and they do not accept mine. I still love and care about them, but when I am there, and we pray, I ignore the parts I don't agree with, and pray with them for the ones I do. It would be hard putting up with a Muslim prayer, but, if I am there, I can bow my head and pray what I think, not necessarily what those who are praying for. Why can't we just get along?

DickD

Absolutely right, we should get along.

MAVRICKinc7

Sorry DICK, but that's not going to happen in your lifetime or mine.

DickD

Realistically and sadly, you are right, but hope springs eternal.

MAVRICKinc7

BECAUSE WE are of the HUMAN species that can't change the DNA WE have been gifted with, since the beginning of recorded history. If you can't accept the FACT that we remain nothing more than a FOREGONE CONCLUSION, then you've missed the point altogether with your devisive and distractive manipulation of words that only the ANNONYMOUS can account for.

All you have accomplished is to distance yourself from the hard realities of prejudice and bigotry that religion found centuries ago before you, who ever you are, even mounted a strategy to soft sell the same LIE we've been telling ourselves for thousands of years. Simply said, you will never "be there" when the rubber hits the road and all you can do is mumble to yourself and this commenting audience. What is it about your use of "it would be HARD putting up with Muslim prayer" that you can't bring yourself to understand, much less comprehend?

I can appreciate your word manipulation, disguised as Christian thought, but who are you to play games with our commenting audience?

Aren't YOU the very foundation of the LIE we've been telling ourselves for thousands of years and have yet to advance beyond the LIES we've been telling ourselves for centuries??

jsklinelga

By the nature of many of the following comments it is understandable why my daughter does not want her kids to attend public schools. I was a strong advocate of the public school system but no longer. I also feel that parents that provide alternative forms of education, meeting all educational requirements by law, should not be forced to pay the exorbitant taxes to support a public education system that is contrary to their beliefs. As of now, mandatory taxes.

BlueDawn666

well okay, so you would be okay if we made churches pay taxes right? See if they all did pay their fair share of taxes then you would not need to pay such an exorbitant tax to support public education, and what was I saying about elitism? Your daughter is being elite because she doesn't want her "religious" children to attend public school, you realize that correct? How is the public school system supposed to accommodate all beliefs anyway, and again which beliefs should we be accommodating?

jsklinelga

Bluedawn666
We have taken up far too much space in this discussion. But to answer your question; yes I think churches should pay taxes except for money going directly to charitable or social needs. My daughter would not be elite, just true to her heritage.

BlueDawn666

So she inherited her god beliefs from you? What is her heritage? that comment makes no sense? I like debating and this what this comment section is all about.

Dwasserba

*No complaints* Molehill, meet mountain.

Greg F

There's always some jackass that has to interject their belief in mythical entities into the curriculum where it has profound influence on defenseless children. That is how indoctrination works. They reply "oh, it can't hurt...it's only a little" or some crap like that. But over and over, they wiggle their warped sense of reality and thrust it bit by bit until people think it's real. Tell a lie over and over again and people will eventually believe it to be true. This person should be reprimanded in the most strict of ways and not allowed in front of groups of public school children again....period. Your god is your business, but that business has NOT ONE PLACE in a taxpayer funded facility or program. Curb your god. Do what your bible says in Matthew 6:5 and keep your prayers and bible babble at home and in your own church.

ClareS

He was asked to come there. The school should have told him what would be appropriate to say or, better yet, not invite a pastor at all.

MAVRICKinc7

[thumbup][thumbup]

vicdavy

[thumbup]collin

save1more4jesus

48 years ago I graduated from high school and I attended school for 12 years. That's 60 years. I'm still living and breathing. In my world believing in God has not hurt me. Side note...what are you afraid of?[smile]

BlueDawn666

Well nothing really but I would not be happy if my tax dollars were spent defending the schools stupidity, see your belief in a god does hurt me because you are trying to impose your beliefs on to me and by doing that you put my tax dollars at risk. I would rather spend them on more important things like dogs and starving children in Africa, wouldn't you? so really you should be afraid of me the angry Atheist because you think my tax dollars should defend your god-beliefs.

MAVRICKinc7

We should be very afraid of man, not God, hurting US and you, over and over again and foregiven by scripted messaging and a God you can't shake hands with. How deep do you want to this hole?

vicdavy

save,Christian Sharia Law[beam]

MAVRICKinc7

DISTRACTION or DEVISIVE means to alter the conversation?

fmjc

Innocent mistake. Important issue. Good job FNP.

MAVRICKinc7

We can call or brand this violation of Church and State and claim it was an "INNOCENT MISTAKE", but in this day and time Kells knew what he was saying BEFORE he delivered his faith message to the real innocent student population that attended the celebration. It doesn't even qualify as an "OOPS MOMENT" for Kells or the staff members of the school to plead innocence, because they didn't know what Kells was going to say in his scripted invocation, when they should have BEFORE the ceremony ever took place.

This dodge ball game being played out, in the FNP, by School staff and Kells feigned innocence is a prevarifcation that the religious ethic is always trying to interject religion into the schooling system, a piece at a time, so as to avoid the States recognition of something as innocent as it's being made out to be by Pastor Kells in collaboration with all school adminsistrations in the REGION?

Were any of these elementary students in attendance actively reading the bible, or other faith-based texts other than the DIFFERENT Sunday Schools or Saturday religious celebrations they attend in their particular CHURCH or place of worship?

DickD

MaV, I have to agree with you, the pastor was invited to speak, surely, as a pastor, they must have known his message would be religious. Not that I care one way or the other.

MAVRICKinc7

Dick: is it a matter of whether you CARE or not?

EZ2CY

Dr. Alban should be held accountable to the state! Brad Young too! They sat through and said nothing, instead they bragged like show boats at the board meeting as to the success of the event! Incompetent FCPS as usual...oops we made a mistake, oops there was a shooting but we are calm, oops a teacher was attacked by a student. She makes over $200.00 for oops? We complain about CEOs but how about these jokers?

timothygaydos

Liberals are upset that a policy was not followed by the school system - but yet I do not hear these same liberals upset with the fact that immigration laws are not being enforced in this country, or that an outgoing secretary of state violated proper security handling of classified material that normally would have any citizen holding a security clearance disciplined and if at the level of degree that Clinton violated the protection by having her own unsecured server, that would be a criminal offense and that individual would not only lose their clearance but face stiff legal penalties under the law. So cry some more about a violation of a school policy about prayer when you should really be upset with how the Federal Government violates laws already on the books... Happy Thanksgiving and thank God we live in the USA and not some socialist communist country.

BlueDawn666

huh??? so then you would be okay with a national religion imposed on the entire country? What religion would you be okay with ? About my religion of the flying spaghetti monster?
The Flying Spaghetti Monster (FSM) is the deity of the Church of the Flying Spaghetti Monster or Pastafarianism (a portmanteau of pasta and Rastafarian), a movement that promotes a light-hearted view of religion and opposes the teaching of intelligent design and creationism in public schools.

Your argument is so illogical can you try again? You do know that socialism and communism are complete opposites of each other right? Also which god are you thanking? Are you thanking Loki? My dog would like that..so sweet of you.

DickD

Yeah, Tim tried two items, religion and Hillary's e-mails, he was wrong on both. Probably not his fault due to being brain washed by Fox News. By the way, can anyone join you religion, FSM? Just wondering, maybe Tim would be interested too, he is easily led.

DickD

Tim, you are twisting facts. There were no known e-mails sent by HIllary that were known to have violated security, as they were not classified at the time thcey were sent. Anyone sending her e-mails should not have violated any security clearance, but that was not Hillary's fault, if it happened. If you had of watched the Benghazi hearing, which I did, you would realize Hillary made a fool out of Gaydos and yes the question on e-mails was raised. As Bernie Sanders said; "I am tired of hearing about those e-mails, time we started talking about serious issues. If you quit listening to Fox News, it might help you.

DickD

Tim, you are a day late and dollar short, here is the official state department report on Hillary's e-mails, it makes you and your Republican buddies look bad.

http://www.dailynewsbin.com/news/state-department-confirms-hillary-clinton-email-violated-no-laws-or-policies/21851/
The State Department publicly confirmed today that Hillary Clinton’s use of personal email while serving as Secretary of State violated no laws or policies that were in place at the time, bringing an end to the substantive side of the “email scandal” if certainly not the political side. Clinton’s opponents in the 2016 election and their followers have been hoping the issue would force her out of the election, but now they’ll be reduced to simply trying to create a scandal where none exists, after the department’s official words today.


Comment deleted.
DickD

Mav, Tim is doing pretty good at coming out with falsehoods.

vicdavy

timmy[offtopic] BTW,Jesus was a Socialist[beam],Read the Gospels especially, "The Sermon on the Mount" and tell me Jesus was a Republican[beam]

phydeaux994

Tim, I have been protesting the fact that laws prohibiting the hiring of illegal aliens by American employers are not being enforced since 2009 when I first started commenting in this forum.

des21

Trivial.

richardlyons

[thumbup]

MAVRICKinc7

OR DENIAL of the truth you want so desperately to go away?

Bj3315

This coming from someone who's profile picture is that of a convicted murderer who goes by the name Eyeball. As well as another brain child who's name contains 666. I wouldn't expect anything less. GOD help us as Americans!

BlueDawn666

So does 666 scare you? why does a number bother you so much? I have never understood that can you explain you illogical fear of a number? thanks

Bj3315

Does what was said at Sabillasville Elementary School scare you?

BlueDawn666

Nothing other than it is ILLEGAL and my tax dollars would have to be spent to defend their stupidity..that's all. You can't be scared of something you don't believe in, are you a scared of Satan? I am assuming you believe in Satan since you believe in god. So are you afraid of Satan?

DickD

Interesting, Blue. You are right, to believe in the Christian faith, you have to believe in heaven and he

DickD

I didn't finish, it was supposed to be heaven and hell. It is the carrot and the stick approach, to keep you in line.

MAVRICKinc7

A little self-righteous don't you think? Isn't GOD a universal thought and not one constructed for just Americans? What is it about your bigotry and prejudice that your petty barbs are supposed to accomplish other than to DIVIDE US more than we already are? Isn't this what and who you really are while hiding behind anonymous and throwing darts from cover?

rwaesche

Another example of FNP's cub reporters trying to win a Pulitzer Prize. Poor.

des21

And West Frederick continues to fall into chaos. Sigh.

MAVRICKinc7

HUH?

salitle

How is this news?? Not a single person complained!? Shame on you FNP!

bosco

It's news, because as the article stated: "School spokesman Michael Doerrer said the invocation was a mistake and not in line with the school system’s policy on religious expression. That policy states that no school system employee may encourage religious activities."

I applaud the FNP for shining the light on this mistake on the part of the school. Religious observances have no place in a publicly-funded school.

aaroneworley

"The school system has received no complaints regarding the invocation, Doerrer said."

shiftless88

So as long as no one complains about something illegal then it's okay to let it fly?

MAVRICKinc7

And, how many COMPLAINTS were their with the last BOCC administration and NO ONE was listening or taking note of public inquiry for the last 5 years? If you want to take Doerrer on face value, without inquiry, shouldn't that be your burden to carry, or do you believe everything that the FNP publishes wasn't otherwise scripted by Doerrer BEFORE the FNP came out with the STORY? We can ask all the QUESTIONS we want, but the FNP is no better that what is scripted for them to say and saving face for those who are eventually found out but lost to our short term memories and what we discard as sound bite messaging for the next week, until another innocent mistake comes along to replace yet another kind of LIE we tell ourselves from one day to next. If you're so easily led, doesn't that make you out to be just another FOLLOWER with blinders on?

DickD

Yes, but why did no one stop the pastor and request him not to give a sermon or whatever he gave? There was plenty of authority in that room and it was all wasted.

MAVRICKinc7

Sorry Dick, but the grown-ups in the room chose not to look or examine the force and effect of a violation of Religion vs State. AUTHORITY in the room doesn't account for the message being delivered to a class of elementary students who didn't have a clue what Pastor Keels was trying to accomplish through his Methodist upbringing and leaving a mark on what will eventually be decided by those youngsters in attendance, and being USED by the adults in the room who couldn't distinguise between what the law has accounted for and their own religious convictions.

Cut it up anyway you want but the LIES we tell ourselves, from one day to the next, are the foundation of what we have witnessed so far but choose to ignore and ACCEPT as business as USUAL, in the far reaches of City and County dialogues that want nothing more than what the REGION affords its citizen population and nothing more than puppets to the same ole strategy that FAMILY dictates, without regard to the laws of the land, but religious convictions that continue to DISTORT reality as WE know it today.

The school dialogue was not wasted. It remains nothing more than an illustration of what is so wrong about our SYSTEM of education that allows religion into the conversation that the law no longer permits and hasn't for decades.

If Keels is the messenger, why not accept the Methodist religion as the only religion in town? Market share in lost souls is of no consequence to me. It's the root of all mankind that wants so desperately to keep the LIE alive, as nothing more than a repeat performance of what we have been for a life time, including those who claimed to be the adults in the room, when they really were nothing more than a foregone conclusion WE have come to ACCEPT as business as USUAL.

The FNP has only opened the door to what most people can't bring themselves to acknowledge in rural America, which remains PAR for the course in any rural community you care to recognize.

Don't mind the LIES we tell ourselves on a daily basis. It's part of our DNA that has played out for centuries, with only the FEW who would QUESTION what the LIE is all about and has been FOREVER to current times. Aren't we anything more than a FORGONE CONCLUSION and have been since the beginning of time and recorded history?

MAVRICKinc7

That YOU know of?

ABQ2013

"The school system has received no complaints regarding the invocation, Doerrer said."
Really sad. The principal did nothing wrong. Nobody did anything wrong, except for following the tradition of a small town. The only person who took offense was a reporter. And so the media becomes the newsmaker! FNP should have interviewed itself to obtain an outraged quote.

MAVRICKinc7

Distraction or devisive means to alter the TRUTH of the matter at hand?

bosco

To all those who think it's OK to have a Christian offer a prayer at a publicly funded school event, just wait until the local imam is given equal time. After all, what makes your religion better or more right than anyone else's? Here's an example of a Muslim prayer that is broadcast over loudspeakers at Mecca. Might be nice to include this one at the next FCPS event:

"As Muslims circumambulated around the Ka’ba, the following supplications were blasted on a megaphone, chanted to by Islam’s devotees:

O Allah vanquish the unjust Christians and the criminal Jews, the unjust traitors; strike them with your wrath; make their lives hostage to misery; drape them with endless despair, unrelenting pain and unremitting ailment; fill their lives with sorrow and pain and end their lives in humiliation and oppression; inflict your tortures and punishments upon the unjust Christians and criminal Jews. This is our supplication, Allah; grant us our request."

You can read more about this prayer here:
http://www.raymondibrahim.com/from-the-arab-world/muslim-prayers-of-hate/

How about we invite a Rastafarian to offer a few prayers, play a little Bob Marley, and pass around a doobie or two?

In for a penny, in for a pound.

des21

I am DOWN for that last part Bosco![beam]

I think the point of many of us is that we have bigger problems in this area than this (and Roger Taney busts for that matter.) That's all.

armillary

An embarrassing lapse of policy, caused most likely by a lack of sensitivity on the part of one or two employees as to why the policy is in place. The error has been acknowledged, those who need counselling by management will receive it, and I'm satisfied it won't happen again. The FNP performed a valuable service in reporting this incident, and the story was well written. I wish everyone a nice holiday.

shiftless88

[thumbup][thumbup]

Hayduke2

Your point is right on. Mistake made, acknowledged and brought to light, and will, presumably, be corrected. Move on.

MAVRICKinc7

What is it to PRESUME it will be corrected? Have we corrected CORRUPTION in our own citizen ranks, while MOVING ON to yet another EVENT that will take its place as we have for decades and generations of lying to ourselves, as you wish to do now with your RETREAT strategy and having to never look over your shoulder to what is gaining ground on your well intentioned and rhetorical sound bite messaging to "move on", AGAIN?

MAVRICKinc7

You're SATISFIED it won't happen again? Where have you been for the last century or so?

DickD

And all that has been written about separation of church and state, all the educated people with masters and doctors and they didn't know? They are wasting their education, that we are paying for.

MAVRICKinc7

AGAIN, the nature of the LIE we tell ourselves on a daily basis and promoted by those who should necessarily know the difference.

jsklinelga

To all those that think our Government is neutral on religion and that prayer should not be included in public functions I offer this:

The invocation to the House of Representatives - 11/19/2015
The Rev. Patrick J. Conroy, S.J.

Loving God, we give thanks for Giving us another day...

Lord, give the members of the People's House the ability to listen intently to differing opinions and respond creatively. May their faith be strong...


May all that is done this day be for Your greater Honor and Glory.
Amen

Should these prayers given to our legislators daily be banned from our public institutes of learning.

public-redux

Are you suggesting that elementary school children at a mandatory event are equivalent to adults at a voluntary event?

jsklinelga

Thank God public school is not mandatory.

public-redux

Do you deliberately misunderstand?

MAVRICKinc7

Maybe that's some of the reasoning why our student population ranks in the high twenties on an INTERNATIONAL scale of learning. Or shall the MEEK inherit the earth and invoke GOD as the only answer to the extermination of our species by man's own hand, not Gods?

DickD

School is mandatory, public school is not.

bosco

"Should these prayers given to our legislators daily be banned from our public institutes of learning.".....No, they should be banned in Congress as well. Giving preference to any religion/superstition in a publicly funded and/or government meeting is wrong.

BlueDawn666

Also JS you never answered my question so I will ask it AGAIN.
Huh? Many have tried to change this and their beliefs were forced upon us? What beliefs? Go back and slowly read that sentence JS..their beliefs were forced upon us, see whatever beliefs you are speaking about you were not happy that they were forced upon you. Again what beliefs?

And the answer to your last question is YES. What don't you understand about PUBLIC? Should I come to your church and worship my god Loki? Would that be okay with you? Which god does your church pray to?

DickD

Okay, Blue, as I understand it, your religion if FSM and your God is Loki. So, where is you church located and why can't I find your religion or God listed in Wikipedia? Did you just start your religion? If you did, how are donations doing? lol

public-redux

Here's a link to Wiki's page on Loki. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Loki

Here's a link to Wiki's page on FSM. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flying_Spaghetti_Monster

Pro tip: I found them by entering "Loki" and "FSM" into Wiki's search box.

MAVRICKinc7

If you want to debate the issue at hand with distractions and diversions, what's left to discuss and centered on RELIGION in our schools?

Aren't these, including yourself, the same people who took us to war based on a LIE before GOD? What has the Republican House of Reprentatives prepared for US under GOD, but willing to violate our Constitution on a whole sale basis when it comes to refugees and immigrants which remains the foundation of this Nation or the one that you would pay allegiance to and nothing to do with the tenets of Democracy we ONCE HELD UP with pride, but no longer exists, except in name only. But I digress, much the same way you are doing now. from the subject of this disclosure that RELIGION is still trying to make it's way back into our schools at the youngest levels possible.

Didn't the Third Reich, who pretended to be Christian, pull off the same strategic manipulation as those in RELIGIOUS quarters and looking for MARKET SHARE in the number of believers they can lure by any means or strategy possible that's being reported here; including the same LIES we continue to tell ourselves on a daily basis?

m21701m

jbauerwolf@newspost.com .. here is the email address of the so called journalist who created this mess of an article. Email him and tell him what you think.

public-redux

I'll send along my congratulations for a job well done.

BlueDawn666

I will email him and tell him thank you for bringing this to the public's attention, would that be okay with you? Oh heck I am pretty sure he is reading the comments and chuckling. So I will thank him here..thank you and I am pleased that you understood how wrong this was.

shiftless88

Isn't this precisely what investigative journalism is all about? And you criticize him for it? Do you want to suppress the press and free speech?

MAVRICKinc7

Isn't that what Senator McCarthy attempted to do 60 years ago? Or is that considered old news and no longer relevant into todays CLIMATE of constant change?

MAVRICKinc7

Isn't that what we are doing and have been for more than HUNDRED COMMENTS?

public-redux

At times like this, I'm reminded of the Philadelphia Bible Riots. When Christians killed each over religion in the public schools. I'll quote a bit from one of the articles that are easily found by googling "Philadelphia bible riots"

"On a warm spring day more than 150 years ago George Schiffler died on a street in Philadelphia. ... Young Schiffler was the first to die as rampaging mobs of Roman Catholics and Protestants shot, clubbed, and otherwise attacked one another in what was known as the "Philadelphia Bible Riots."

Interestingly enough, the issue that incited the violence remains controversial even today, and that is religion in public schools.

In fact, the parallels between the rhetoric of nineteenth-century America's Protestant majority and today's Religious Right are startling. As Roman Catholics and Protestants battled more than a century ago over prayer and Bible reading in public schools, Protestants relied on the same arguments uttered by modern-day TV preachers: Protestant practices in public schools were "traditional"; those who don't like the exercises could get up and leave the room; a little religion never hurt anyone; and finally, Protestants were the majority and should have the right to do whatever they wanted.

Like the modern Religious Right, ultraconservative Protestant leaders of the nineteenth century insisted the United States was a "Christian nation." Only one catch: by "Christian" they really meant "Protestant."

Statistically at least, the view was correct. Although Roman Catholics had lived in the country since the Colonial period, they were few in number and politically impotent. A great wave of immigration from Ireland in the 1830's and 1840's threatened to change that. Most of the Irish were Catholics fleeing the potato famine, and their arrival on these shores in large numbers caused near panic among the Protestant majority.

Catholics were considered a threat; they resisted assimilation and were accused of owing their loyalty to a foreign potentate - the Roman pope. Their religion was widely misunderstood, and rumors circulated. Priests were accused of sexual depravity. Priests and nuns, it was said, had engaged in illicit affairs and killed the offspring, burying them beneath the floors of convents. As bizarre as these stories sound today, they were taken seriously by many Americans in the 1840's.

Each side had extremes. In 1842 more than 50 clergy formed the American Protestant Association, a group dedicated to halting the spread of Catholicism in the United States.

The Catholic Church, meanwhile, dogmatically clung to theological precepts that only widened the chasm between the two groups. The church's official stance was that separation of church and state was an erroneous principle; governments, the church maintained, had an obligation to submit to Rome. There was no salvation outside the church, and "error" - that is, other religions - had no rights that the pope was obliged to recognize."

Plenty more at:


http://aoh61.com/history/bible/rob_boston.htm

Aslan19

I find it interesting that you reference back to an article about protestant riots that includes mention of "Priests (being) accused of sexual depravity. Priests and nuns, it was said, had engaged in illicit affairs..." Maybe the people back in the 1840's knew somethings that the current population is seeing the results of right now.....

public-redux

It is the ncorrect to call them Protestant riots. Both Catholics and Protestants rioted.

The proximate cause was how to have bible readings in public school. Catholics wanted interpretation; Protestants did not. Mayhem ensued.

One broader point, of course, is that there is no "Christian" tradition that Christians can agree on.

MAVRICKinc7

Simply said, WE haven't changed in our religious advocacy for more than 300 years. We're still nothing more than the same hipocrits we were and still are to this day. Doesn't all this amount to a strategy for market share for lost souls and a BUSINESS MODEL that has been used for centuries by religious ethics found to be as corrupt as our elected leaders are TODAY? Get past the LIES we tell ourselves daily and you will find that RELIGION is as much a business proposition as Wall Street is and has been that led US to a recession, that's now taking its toll, AGAIN on the scam of religion has been FOUND OUT, over and over, and not much to pray for when your savior turns out to be a con artist?

DickD

Actually, public, little has changed. The Catholic Church still maintains there is no salvation outside of the Catholic Church. And they made a point of teaching us that all Protestant religions were derived from the Catholic Church. But what went on in the South was intolerable and these are your today's Republicans.

timothygaydos

Is there no civility any longer - there is only one God for us who believe in our religion for those who not believe that is your choice. To insult either person is just wrong, but this site I have noticed that we become too personal with the attacks and do not stay on point regarding the subject matter.

BlueDawn666

So then it shouldn't be that hard to tell us which god they should be praying to right? Why is asking which god you pray to an insult? How is that a personal attack? Why are my questions making you so uncomfortable? It really is a simple question. Why is it okay to pray to a god in a public school but not okay to name your god on a public comment board? See my point?

bosco

"there is only one God for us who believe in our religion for those who not believe that is your choice" ....whose god, timothygaydos? Why should my taxpayer dollars be spent to proselytize your concept of a god in any public meeting or taxpayer supported institution? Keep your concept of a god to yourself. After all, wasn't it your god who instructed: And when you pray, do not be like the hypocrites, for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and on the street corners to be seen by others......But when you pray, go into your room, close the door, and pray to your Father who is unseen...."

Aslan19

Bosco, your argument regarding the use of your tax dollars can be turned right around and asked why should my tax dollars be used to advance a secular worldview that destroys life and freedom.....

BlueDawn666

So how does your tax dollars promote a secular worldview, what is a secular world view? I think you should define that first..okay? Thanks, then you could explain how your tax dollars are advance a secular world view because I am not seeing that at all.

Aslan19

Also, you may want to spend a bit of time working on your biblical interpretation if you are going to quote scripture in a public setting. You totally ripped that verse out of its context and made it mean something that was not true to the original texts.....

bosco

asslan19...out of context? Here are a few more versus from the same passages of Chapter 6 of the book of Matthew:
"1Take heed that ye do not your alms before men, to be seen of them: otherwise ye have no reward of your Father which is in heaven.

2 Therefore when thou doest thine alms, do not sound a trumpet before thee, as the hypocrites do in the synagogues and in the streets, that they may have glory of men. Verily I say unto you, They have their reward.

3 But when thou doest alms, let not thy left hand know what thy right hand doeth:

4 That thine alms may be in secret: and thy Father which seeth in secret himself shall reward thee openly.

5 And when thou prayest, thou shalt not be as the hypocrites are: for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and in the corners of the streets, that they may be seen of men. Verily I say unto you, They have their reward.

6 But thou, when thou prayest, enter into thy closet, and when thou hast shut thy door, pray to thy Father which is in secret; and thy Father which seeth in secret shall reward thee openly.

7 But when ye pray, use not vain repetitions, as the heathen do: for they think that they shall be heard for their much speaking.

8 Be not ye therefore like unto them: for your Father knoweth what things ye have need of, before ye ask him."


MAVRICKinc7

AND you are spell-bound by man's INTERPRETATION of Biblical warring against one another and have been for thousands of years. Aren't you dealing in false narritives you have bought into, without cause or question. Where have you tucked away our God given right of FREE WILL? Do you now sit on the right hand of God and passing judgement by virtue of your INTERPRETATION of the many Bibles we have authored over the centuries? If we were to reach out and try to shake your hand, would you even be there?

richardlyons

Well said Tim (and we don't agree on much).

Hayduke2

The same could be said for those who regularly stray from the topics, use terms like "liberal" as an insult, etc. Look in the mirror my man.

MAVRICKinc7

You mean, like yourself? Aren't you playing the role of hypocrite while playing the tune of righteous indignation that boils down to yet another LIE you tell yourself and this commenting audience every chance you get. All you want to do is make this exchange PERSONAL when it's really about MARKET SHARE in lost souls, who are now QUESTIONING their faith, not in themselves, but what is being sold on the open market thru religious connivance.

Rick Blatchford

A perfect example of a newspaper "making the news" as opposed to reporting the news. Without the FNP, this is not a story. Two telling quotes. "The school system responded to the incident after an inquiry from The FN-P." AND EVEN MORE TELLING "The school system has received no complaints regarding the invocation..." That being the case, why does this story rate a front page placement? The paper must have needed filler as an excessive number of words were devoted to this non-issue. This entire piece belongs on the cutting room floor. Most disappointing. :-(

BlueDawn666

So which god is your favorite? Which god do you hope that they were praying to?

The school is lucky they didn't receive any complaints..major lawsuit here. I guess I can and probably should lodge a complain with the FFRF, since you mentioned it.
[wink]

public-redux

Rick. Let change the facts just a bit and see if you want to stick to your argument. An FNP reporter witnesses what he believes to be an drug deal. The reporter recognizes one of the participants in the drug deal as a FredCo deputy sheriff. No one involved in the drug deal complains. The FNP asks the sheriff's department about the incident. The sheriff's office responds that it is against department policy for employees to participate in drug deals. As you say, without the FNP, this is not a story.

Do you still maintain that the FNP should not report on that drug deal? As you say, without the FNP, this is not a story.

Hayduke2

The logic is wasted on Rick.

Aslan19

Good job making an apples and oranges example......

public-redux

Yes, they are both fruit so the analogy is apt.

William Smith

"Making the news as opposed to reporting the news"...I wonder what Woodward and Bernstein would say about that statement?

MAVRICKinc7

SO, can WE be just as disapponted in your asessment of this report as you are in the FNP?

bosco

A prayer to any diety has no place in a public meeting or a publicly-funded school system. I do not want your superstitions imposed on my child. If you want your children to pray in school, send the little darlings to a parochial school and they can pray all they want.

If you think prayer belongs in school and public meetings, just wait until the local imam is invited to offer a prayer and invoke the blessings of Allah in the fight against the infidels

BlueDawn666

Well that would have made the national news. Probably even made it on the Rachel Maddow show. She did talk about Don't Say My Name Kirby Delauter,remember? she has a fondness for us here in Frederick.

Aslan19

Bosco, I can understand your point of view, but cannot support it. I pay taxes the same as the next person. The constitution speaks to the establishment of a STATE RUN religion, not the exclusion of all religion.

And yes, I would have no issues at all if an iman comes in and offers a generic prayer to Allah. That is his right under our system of government. In the same manner, a priest can offer a generic prayer asking for God's blessing on an event. Equal opportunity, equal access.

public-redux

The first amendment does not refer to "a" religion but to religion generally. "...an establishment of religion..." Nor does it speak to an exclusion of religion. "Not establishing" is not the same as "excluding".

johnqFrederick

The FNP writer states, "The school system responded to the incident after an inquiry from The Frederick News-Post"

Hey, FNP -- don't you have something better to do than highlight a prayer?

BTW -- this isn't an incident as you seem to proudly proclaim -- it is a prayer -- back off!

BlueDawn666

So which god to you imagine they were praying to? Which god is your favorite? Let me guess that would be, Zues?

shiftless88

First people complain because the FNP isn't an investigative paper but when they do initiate something you complain they should have something better to do? Remember how Watergate was uncovered? No one "complained" about that, either.

BlueDawn666

See what I don't get is why this is still happening in public schools, prayer and any mention of a god. Also which god were they speaking of? I wonder how happy you all would have been had they been praying to the Muslim god or the Mormon god, or the Jewish god or Thor ,or Loki ,or Apollo, or Zues? Loki is my personal favorite, cause I name my dog after Loki the god of mischief.
Everyone just assumes they were praying to that one god that lives in their own imagination but what if they weren't? What if they were praying to Satan? I don't think you would all be cavalier about this as to say oh yeah like what is the big deal don't we have more important issues to worry about, well we do, but also the bigger issues we have to worry about, many of them are rooted in religion. It is because of RELIGION we have bigger issues to concern ourselves with. Think about it.
Religion creates elitism among us and divides us, instead of uniting us it divides us we end up hating our fellow man simply because they believe in a different god differently or they don't believe at all. For you all not to understand how wrong this is and why this should never happen in a public school astounds me. For our school officials to not know this should not ever be allowed makes me question their leadership skills.
Public schools need to remain religion free, freedom from religion is what allows freedom of religion, why is that so many god-believers fail to comprehend this?

School prayer proponents mistake government neutrality toward religion as hostility. The record shows that religious beliefs have flourished in this country not in spite of but because of the constitutional separation of church and state.

Like I say religion creates elitism among us and divides and separates us.

When religion has invaded our public school system, it has singled out the lone Jewish student, the class Unitarian or agnostic, the children in the minority. Families who protest state/ church violations in our public schools invariably experience persecution. It was commonplace prior to the court decision against school prayer to put non-religious or nonorthodox children in places of detention during bible-reading or prayer recitation. The children of Supreme Court plaintiffs against religion in schools, such as Vashti McCollum, Ed Schempp and Ishmael Jaffree, were beaten up on the way to and from school, their families subjected to community harassment and death threats for speaking out in defense of a constitutional principle. We know from history how harmful and destructive religion is in our public schools. In those school districts that do not abide by the law, school children continue to be persecuted today.
https://ffrf.org/outreach/item/14029-prayer-in-public-school

jsklinelga

BlueDawn666

Well written but inaccurate. Our government was not created neutral to religion. Out of the thousands of examples we need look no further then our State Constitution. Many have tried to change this and have their beliefs forced upon us.

BlueDawn666

Huh? Many have tried to change this and their beliefs were forced upon us? What beliefs? Go back and slowly read that sentence JS..their beliefs were forced upon us, see whatever beliefs you are speaking about you were not happy that they were forced upon you. Again what beliefs?

BlueDawn666

Also there is this issue as to which god is the Common Father and Creator of man, can you tell us which god that may be? Which god is Jefferson speaking of? Which god was in his imagination at that time?

MAVRICKinc7

Wasn't there a Jeffersonian Bible that Jefferson cut and paste and tried to sell his version of the Bible to our Congressional members of that day?

timothygaydos

Great finally someone had the guts to break a policy and let a prayer go forth.

BlueDawn666

So which god do you think they were praying to?

BlueDawn666

So which god do you imagine they were praying to? Which god is your favorite?

public-redux

Great! A commenter finally has the guts to admit that the minister was praying.

jsklinelga

Typical of the revisionist and distorted history that has been perpetuated for the last several decades, many comments allude to Thomas Jefferson's letter calling for a separation of church and state, in order to ban prayer in Government.


These arguments are distorted, taken out of context and against Jefferson's own views. The Danbury Baptists petitioned Jefferson to prevent States from forming set laws pertaining to "governing the Kingdom of Christ. For centuries Government via the Roman Catholic Church or the Anglican Church mandated proscribed forms of worship. Our new government freed us from those authorized governmental dictates.

Jefferson' response in no way advocated the abandonment of prayer. Quite the contrary. In his response he said "I reciprocate your kind prayers for the protection and blessing of the Common Father and Creator of man."

DickD

If am going to get upset, it will take more than this to upset me. God Bless!

niceund

OH God, forgive us for saying your name. Pathetic and sad that we've reached such a moral low.

EZ2CY

Dr. Alban was there and was oblivious as usual. Separation of Church and State does not apply to FCPS! How can Dr. Alban discipline this Principal when she sat through the event and bragged about it at the board meeting along with Brad Young? Ha ha ha they were collectively breaking the law LOL! Dr. Alban is a riot!

bigbrowndog97

So no complaints were made but the FNP created their own conflict to report on. Good job FNP, way to continue the trend of no ethics in the media

public-redux

The superintendent and the head of the BOE were present. Not to mention the FNP itself. Failure to address the violations when the violations were known would open the school system (read, taxpayers) to significant legal liabilities if a subsequent violation occurred and a complaint was filed. And FCPS's liability insurance probably would not pay in that case either.

FredCo taxpayers owe a huge thank you to the FCPS for jumping on this right away.

Weigelt

Like

MAVRICKinc7

Is that you David?

shannon

You are so right, someone always has to put their nose where it doesn't belong the way the world is now, it's everywhere.

public-redux

You think a free press shouldn't question government? Government should be above the law? Why do you hate freedom so much?

MAVRICKinc7

Nomore so than we find ETHICS in local government, yesterday and today?

JMGrunw

The Pledge of Allegiance is recited daily and references "one nation under God." How is general mention of God a violation of school policy?

public-redux

It sounds as if you are unfamiliar with "ceremonial deism".

"Ceremonial deism is a legal term used in the United States for nominally religious statements and practices deemed to be merely ritual and non-religious through long customary usage. Proposed examples of ceremonial deism include the reference to God introduced into the Pledge of Allegiance in 1954, the phrase "In God We Trust" on U.S. currency, and the Ohio state motto, "With God, all things are possible"." https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ceremonial_deism

I've always been a bit surprised that Americans who are religious aren't more upset with SCOTUS for deciding that "God" on the currency or in the pledge does not, in fact, refer to God. Or when Scalia suggested that a Latin cross is not a Christian symbol.

public-redux

The minister's comments at the event differ from children reciting the pledge in several ways. First, reciting the pledge is optional. It is unconstitutional to compel children to recite the pledge or to punish for refusing to do so. (The court case on that was brought against the government people of a particular religion because reciting the pledge infringed on their freedom of religion). The children's attendance at this event was (probably) mandatory.

Second, the pledge is recited by individuals as a personal statement. One doesn't recite the pledge at someone else but on behalf of oneself. An individual does not have the right to insist that others around him be prohibited from reciting the pledge.

Third, the minister is there as an agent of the school system (paid or volunteer is irrelevant). He represents the school system. And the courts take a very dim view of the government or its agents imposing religion or a particular religion on minors. The minister's invocation was not a general mention of God but an intercessory prayer to a particular deity. That amounts to a government endorsement of religion because of his role as an agent for the government and his actual words.

The minister probably had good intentions. And we all know where that leads.

JMGrunw

Children don't have to recite the pledge, but they have to listen to it on the announcements daily. The minister didn't make anyone recite a prayer, as far as the article indicates. Therefore, I'm not sure how this constitutes "imposing a particular religion on minors." There is no mention of Jesus or Yahweh or Allah. How do you know he was invoking a "particular deity"? I oppose public prayer in public schools, for the record. That said, I think this is a more complex issue than many are willing to acknowledge.

And in terms of "ceremonial deism":
https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/our-humanity-naturally/201205/the-dangerous-fallacy-ceremonial-deism

public-redux

I know he was invoking a particular deity because he asked God for this, that, and the other thing. Intercessory prayers are directed to something, aren't they?

A prayer by an agent of the govt is different --really different -- from the pledge of allegiance.

public-redux

I like the article on ceremonial deism, by the way. Pretty much in line with my thinking. (Ceremonial deism is essentially Christian hypocrisy.). But if god-botherers are going to bring up the pledge and the motto, then I'm going to insist that "God" is legally permitted in those circumstances only because the term doesn't mean what the god-botherers think it does. They can't have it both ways.

public-redux

"Therefore, I'm not sure how this constitutes "imposing a particular religion on minors.""

By virtue of the minister being an agent of the government. The standards are especially strict when minors are involved. Had this been a college, the standards would be different -- although the outcome could be the same. (For example, government hotels -- mostly on military bases -- have been getting into trouble recently for keeping bibles -- and only bibles -- in rooms.)

MAVRICKinc7

It's only being made more complex than it really is, which we love to tinker with when it comes to ones particular God that remains beyond our comprehension and has from our beginnings. This is the oldest LIE that MAN has created for himself, so as to avoid accountability for his sins and warring nature against his own kind. This is about MAN and not who he claims his God to be.

DickD

"..........where that leads." If you don't believe in God, where could that be?

public-redux

You're missing the point DD. In this instance, the minister's good intentions had the potential to lead to a lawsuit that could cost us all plenty. Coming up with $60k for 9th grade sports is even harder if you're shelling out hundreds of thousands after violating well-established laws, doncha think?

DickD

Thanks for the interpretation, that is not what I thought you meant.

fireandfarm

Well, I think some people in the school system might have some explaining to do at the Judgement. By the way, the minister wasn't technically an employee, so how do you discipline him?

ChesapeakeDeadrise

who cares, aren't there any REAL issues to worry about?

public-redux

I imagine that the principal would be the candidate for discipline for failing to ensure that the event followed FCPS policies.

EZ2CY

Except Alban and Brad Young were there and did nothing! They should be held accountable for not knowing the laws that have governed us since our inception! Be afraid!

jsklinelga

The principal should be honored for being American. In the words of George Washington spoken in his farewell address: "The name of American, which belong to you in your national capacity....With slight shades of difference, you have the SAME RELIGION, manners, habits and political principles. You have in common cause fought and triumphed together." Once again, the principal should be held in high honor for being American.

public-redux

Just like me! I'm American so I should be held in high honor.

And Mark Twain: "...a God who could make good children as easily a bad, yet preferred to make bad ones; who could have made every one of them happy, yet never made a single happy one; who made them prize their bitter life, yet stingily cut it short; who gave his angels eternal happiness unearned, yet required his other children to earn it; who gave is angels painless lives, yet cursed his other children with biting miseries and maladies of mind and body; who mouths justice, and invented hell--mouths mercy, and invented hell--mouths Golden Rules and foregiveness multiplied by seventy times seven, and invented hell; who mouths morals to other people, and has none himself; who frowns upon crimes, yet commits them all; who created man without invitation, then tries to shuffle the responsibility for man's acts upon man, instead of honorably placing it where it belongs, upon himself; and finally, with altogether divine obtuseness, invites his poor abused slave to worship him!"

MAVRICKinc7

What does being an American have to do with this conversation? Is this your latest hiding place so as to ignore the reality of what continues to take place in what's left of our DEMOCRACY. You are an American,, so what the difference between you and the principle? Isn't that flag of yours getting a little too heavy for you to be carrying it around?

MAVRICKinc7

The Methodist Pastor, with his own sense of who or what God is, crossed the line in a setting and presentation in a school invironment that has been protested for centuries and made a matter of man's law and not the one Kells took up to deliver an invocation to an elementary class of school kids.

There is no disipline to be had, when we ignore the law and continue to do so on a daily basis, while religious sentiment and ethics are always chipping away at our institutions of learning and State, with what they believe, what ever that might be, so as to gain market share of a diverse world population, that's been lied to from DAY ONE and still counting.

God is not a technically. HE's a business and has ALWAYS been since man decided to scipt HIS existence thousands of years ago.

What the Pastor is, is a believer in the religion he chose to represent and nothing more. He chose, along with his supporters, to go public in what should have been a private matter in a publically guarded institution lacking the protocols of contolling Religion and the State.

Ever wonder what people really think and believe when they remain hidden behind the cloth, but always looking for future parrishiners to fill their pews by any means or opportunity they are given, as in this case. Give an inch, and they will take a mile, as we have witnessed thoughout man's history.

jsklinelga

On this comment section there are many avowed secularists and many atheist. That is their right. But Freedom of religion is also a right. It is time for a radical change. The "one shoe fits all", politically correct policies of the current public school is unconstitutional. It prohibits rights. A revolution is brewing. An increasing number of young parents no longer support the public schools yet are also burdened with the large tax bill of the institution. Major changes are on the horizon.

public-redux

Which and whose rights are violated by the FCPS policy?

jsklinelga

Our forefathers and our children s. We have tolerated this long enough in the name of tolerance. Your beliefs imposed on the majority may be waning.

public-redux

How are "our" children's rights violated? Which rights? I suspect people who are dead don't actually have any civil rights so I'll assume the foremothers reference was an honest mistake.

What do you imagine my beliefs to be? And how am I imposing them on others? I don't attempt to use government to force my beliefs on others.

MAVRICKinc7

AND you are now the MAJORITY? The MAJORITY of what?

Nicki

Yes jsk..., freedom of religion... the right for me to send my child to public school and not have him indoctrinated by another's religion. Teaching about God should be done in the home and/or the church of one's choosing.

public-redux

I wonder if he thinks ministers (and imams and Druid priests and atheists) have a constitutional right to go into a public school and talk to a captive audience of other people's children about gods.

jsklinelga

Nicki
You are correct. in part. The current policies of public schools are untenable. The "one shoe fits all" does not work now that many no longer share a common belief. A sizable percentage of our population wants our Christian American heritage taught and honored in their children's schools. Many are cautious about prayer and religious dogma but they want their shared beliefs, and our forefather's shared beliefs to be honored, taught and worshiped. To many have shed their blood for this right to not allow the right to be honored.

public-redux

Can you explain the differences between Christian dogma and Christian beliefs?

Nicki

Jsk - too many have shed blood BECAUSE of this belief as well. Just as our beliefs are not in accord today, neither were the beliefs of our forefathers. Thomas Jefferson would not agree with you.

MAVRICKinc7

A little over dramatic and self righteous don't you think?

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