This is in reply to the suggestion by Marilyn Uchino (Refusing the vaccine should have consequences, Aug. 14) that those in the unvaccinated population be denied medical care/hospitalization if diagnosed with COVID.

First, a large percentage of those not vaccinated are deferring vs. refusing, awaiting a safe, true vaccine to be developed, often because of existing health issues.

Secondly, what about those who eat junk food? Should they be denied cardiac care, dialysis from resultant type 2 diabetes, knee replacement due to inflammation and/or obesity? How about those who engage is dangerous activities e.g. motorcycling, bicycling, rock climbing? Should they be refused neuro/orthopedic care in the event of an accident?

The list could go on ad nauseam but you get the idea (hopefully). I pay for medical insurance and expect medical care whether I’m vaccinated or not. Your suggestion is scary, and frankly, poorly thought out.

Lois Koontz

Frederick

(71) comments

threecents

I don't think medical care should be denied for unvaccinated people, but I do think the vaccine should generally be mandatory. This should be considered a war.

HappySeller2014

It never ceases to amaze me that those who consider themselve goats, and not sheep, are taking sheep de-wormer. Rumor has it Ivermectin tastes great as a dip for Cheetos?

NewMarketParent

@HappySeller2014

I am not a sheep.

*Drinks Ivermecting*

Bahhhhhh

*looks around*

What?

HappySeller2014

Why would you NOT trust a vaccine developed by doctors and medical research experts, yet trust a doctor to save your life when you cannot breathe? Or trust a doctor stick a tube down your throat?

You cannot have it both ways. Either trust the science and medical experts, or stay away from them, and their hospitals, and their pallative care.

The social contract we all enjoy as Americans does not give you the right to pick and choose arbitrarily what you will and will not participate in when it comes to public health care emergencies.

With freedom to choose comes responsibility, respect and due diligence. Not fast food...what a dumb LTE. Cheetos and COVID, just like Cheetos and Polio, just do not mix.

Greg F

Junk food is a choice. The virus being out there is not. What a moronic comparison.

Greg F

Don’t get vaccinated and or don’t wear a mask, health insurance should be canceled

mamlukman

"A safe, true vaccine...." In other words (the words of True Trump Believers), can you "prove" it is 100% safe (and "prove" = mathematical certainty, no error whatsoever) and can you "prove" it is effective (100%...).

No I can't "prove" that. Can you "prove" that you are who you say you are? Can you prove that Neil Armstrong landed on the moon? Can you prove that Eisenhower was not a Communist spy? Can you prove that Oswald killed JFK? Can you prove anything with 100% mathematical certainty? Of course not. It's absurd.

You can only look at the evidence and make a reasonable conclusion. Obviously you have not done that. Too bad.

jth7100

https://crooksandliars.com/2021/08/anti-mask-covidiot-desperate-miracles

NewMarketParent

This article is so stupid that I feel dumber for having read it.

If you don't want to honor the social contract, that knife cuts both ways.

HappySeller2014

This LTE is an absolute joke.

None of the conditions the writer speaks about, including eating junk food, can affect anyone else. Just the person with those conditions.

COVID-19 and the Delta varient spread like wildfire. And 34M children under the age of 12 cannot even get vaccinated yet.

If someone 18 years or older willfully refuses to get the vaccine, for whatever kooky reason (magnets, microchips, my constitutional right, etc.) I say they should be refused medical care. Especially on my taxpayer dime.

Just let them die. If too many, just fire up the firepits. They worked during the Bubonic Plague. They will still work today.

If anything, the populace's average IQ will be increasing as the dumb die off.

jth7100

What she means by "true vaccine" is when that occurs, I'll think up something else. The science behind vaccine refusal is, " I don't want to, you can't make me."

Awteam2021

Lois, nothing on your list of health issues are contagious; eating junk food, type 2 diabetes, knee replacement, personally dangerous activities e.g. motorcycling, bicycling, rock climbing. Nothing. Your letter wasn’t well thought out 💭. Do you pay the health insurance or suffer the consequences of those you might infect 🧐?

You know, in an emergency for your personal healthcare or your love ones, and no beds are available, you won’t be treated do to the occupancy of Covid patients, that weren’t vaccinated, waiting on the true cure. 🙇‍♂️

Hayduke2

Acknowledgement to Delta airlines for saying they are going to charge unvaccinated employees $200 more a month because the average Covid stay in a hospital puts their insurance coverage out about $50,000. Maybe that will wake up some folks.

Dwasserba

Whataboutism. Lame.

DickD

If you are going to refuse to be vaccinated, maybe, just maybe, you do not trust the doctors and wouldn't seek medical help. I knew one lady that got melanoma, a very treatable skin cancer. She refused treatment, preferring to die, as it was against her religion. Apparently, she never heard, God helps those that help their-self (for constructive help).

gabrielshorn2013

What a lame LTE Mr. Koontz. Waiting for a "real and safe vaccine"? Have you bothered to look up the data on the CDC and FDA websites? Probably not. You'll get your health-related information from Facebook. I'll leave a reference below that you'll maybe use. Each of the vaccines approved in the US under EUA (and now full approval for the Pfizer/BioNTech vaccine) went through rigorous phase I, II, and III clinical trials testing both safety and efficacy, whose cohorts had 10X ( over 35 thousand in the phase IIIs for each vaccine) the usual number of volunteers. This is exactly what an "approved" drug must do. Not enough? Wait, there's more! Billions of doses have been administered worldwide, with a negligible number of adverse events (AEs). This is better than most approved drugs on the market. As for your red herring about being unfair if having to forego medical treatment if unvaccinated, I will admit that it's a bit draconian. However, your health insurance should add a significant surcharge to your premium to cover your added risk, just as they do with smokers, whose health issues are totally preventable. Additionally, should you hit the jackpot and need hospitalization or an ICU, your insurance will cover some of it, but not nearly all of it. Should you die, that cost does not go away. Your estate is stuck with the bill, and there goes anything that you were leaving for your wife and kids. How thoughtful of you! As for health exemptions, there are very few valid health exemptions. Physicians are urging their patients with

health issues to get vaccinated. Religious exemptions? Well, if you're Catholic, you're SOL because the Church will not approve of one for you for religious grounds. There are three reasons for not getting vaccinated. We can alleviate ignorance with education. We can assuage fear with courage. But there is no fixing stupid. Get your jab. Wear your mask.

gabrielshorn2013

Oops! Forgot the reference: https://www.fox13news.com/news/financial-burden-of-getting-covid-19

MD1756

[thumbup] Mrnatural. We just found out yesterday that our 88 year old father who is in the hospital because of an infection that made it into the bloodstream, and kidney and urinary tract issues has contracted Covid. Fortunately our parents were vaccinated in February. Our father either caught the virus from staff at the nursing home in North Carolina or from staff in the hospital. It is ridiculous that some many people are still not vaccinated. Fortunately so far it seems our father is asymptomatic, but if he hadn't been vaccinated, given his other health issues, that outcome may have been different. Those who are not vaccinated should be required to identify themselves so that those of us who are can refuse to interact with them. People who are vulnerable should have the right to know if someone providing a paid service is putting them at a higher risk. Someone's right to privacy ends when that privacy potentially impacts the health of others.

NewMarketParent

@MD1756

[thumbup]

If someone can't follow the social contract, they should be denied the benefits of society.

Rockfish

So are you advocating that those who don't comply with the law be removed from society (i.e., jailed)?

mbv1

[thumbup][thumbup][thumbup]

mordans

To rockfish, jail doesn’t remove from society, just sends people to a subset of society.

NewMarketParent

@Rockfish

Nope.

They should be denied access the the common and public goods and services.

Jailing them would be the dumbest possible solution.

MD1756

My mistake it should have been [thumbup] gabrielshorn.

Dwasserba

[thumbup]gabrielshorn I should read ahead before commenting (as I’ve said before) 🙄because right here is my comment, fleshed out.

jth7100

Nice burn on the Mr. Koontz line to a woman. Also, you can't possibly think this is a person that is going to understand your logical reasoning, right?

gabrielshorn2013

Yeah, is saw "Louis" instead of "Lois". I realized that after I clicked "post comment". Everything else stands.

MD1756

"First, a large percentage of those not vaccinated are deferring vs. refusing, awaiting a safe, true vaccine to be developed, often because of existing health issues." That argument officially became invalid earlier this week but was really invalidated long before when one considers all of the millions of people vaccinated which dwarfs any normal sample size data for approving new drugs.

mordans

Wow, I heard the same response in conversation with an unvaccinated “friend “ wanting to visit us from Florida, when I told her “stay home” or “don’t visit us”. She made the same comment that “it’s not really a vaccine “, there isn’t any health reason for her to not get the shot, she just thinks it’s “unnecessary because I’m careful and healthy”.

I made a comment to my wife about COVID care for the non-vaccinated, days before Marilyn Uchino voiced same in her LTE.

Expensive Cancer and other treatments are denied by insurance companies due to “experimental “ reasons. Seems like premiums should go up for unvaccinated people.

I have an immunodeficiency and I got the 2 shots. The efficacy for me is questionable. I NEED others to get shots to help keep ME safe. All of the CDC recommendations are designed to slow the transmission of COVID, while most masks will allow some COVID virus through, the reason to wear one is to lower the viral load spread by the unaware, asymptomatic, infected population.

If a person is not going to use mask or get the vaccine, they should sit alone all day. But as “birds of a feather flock together “ I wish I could know where this happens so I can stay away. And send a “Darwin award” to you and yours, god bless!

NewMarketParent

@mordans

Please don't endanger yourself for this silly person.

I have a coworker right now who is sick (as well as her spouse) with COVID because friends of theirs didn't get vaccinated and didn't tell her. They came to visit and infected their whole house. They luckily are vaccinated (it seems to be a breakthrough case) and while the two of them are sick and can't smell/taste, they are probably going to be quite alright. Their friends who infected them are not having a good go of it so far.

pdl603

I thought health care was a ‘basic’ right. That is what I heard over and over from the goons on the left. Now all the sudden it isn’t if you don’t comply with the directorate. Oh what plans the goon squad on the left have for this country, scary eh?

shiftless88

Sure, piddle, but triage is becoming a reality. People like you have continually squashed our health care system so now we all pay the price.

saogirl52

Do you actually expect anybody to put your health needs above those who demonstrated that they care about not only themselves, but their community? You actively showed you didn't give a fig about others, and went out of your way to dissuade others from taking simple Covid precautions. Now, hospitals are overcrowded, ICU beds are filled, mostly with unvaccinated Covid sufferers, hospitals in the South are running out of oxygen, for God's sake. Medical staff have worked themselves to near breakdowns because of people like you. All because your "rights" were infringed upon by wearing a mask and getting a shot. I consider myself somewhat left of center and I'm all out of compassion for fools.

gabrielshorn2013

Spot on again saogirl52! Hospitals are turning away emergencies, such as heart attacks, strokes, and crash victims because they do not have the beds to treat them. All because some ignorant, afraid, or stupid person refused to be vaccinated, or follow the rules (wear a mask, wash your hands, keep distance, avoid crowds). How patriotic of them!

Dwasserba

[thumbup]saogirl I admire your passionate style of self-expression.

mbv1

[thumbup][thumbup][thumbup]

Hayduke2

Every time you post, you reveal a little more about how biased and selfish you are. That is the scary part.

NewMarketParent

@PDL

It is a right. Rights come with responsibilities. You don't get #1 without #2 and you are full of #2.

TrekMan

We call this Pretzel Logic!! You have to wonder where these people get their rationale?? Nevers ceases to amaze me!! Aye Carrumba!!

jth7100

https://images.dailykos.com/images/968175/large/Covid_Can_Fix_Stupid.jpg?1626818183

saogirl52

I'm not going to possibly get diabetes because you eat junk food. My dad isnot going to get his knees replaced because you're obese. My kids arenot going to get liver disease because you drink too much. My elderly neighbor is not going to break his back because you go rock climbing. See the difference? And what's this nonsense about a "true" vaccine? You're endangering everyone around you because you read some misinformation on facebook or heard it on infowars. If that's the case, I'm OK with you being the end of the line for medical care.

saogirl52

Let me clarify, if you're eligible for the vaccine, choose to be unvaccinated, AND have Covid symtoms, I don't mind you being at the end of the line.

NewMarketParent

@saogirl52

Exactly!

You cannot be a member of society and not be bound by it's rules.

Rockfish

So what are societies rules? I live by God's rules & the rule of law. Not by those who wish to impose their wills & beliefs on others!

gabrielshorn2013

Sorry, Rockfish, there are three reasons for not getting vaccinated. Ignorance, fear, and yes, stupidity. We can alleviate ignorance with education, and there is factual information on the CDC and FDA websites. We can assuage fear with bravery. FDR told us "the only thing we have to fear, is fear itself". Bravery doesn't mean you stop being afraid. It means you take a deep breath and do it anyway. And lastly, stupidity. Despite all the information distributed, and calls like FDR's for bravery, some will just be stupid. There is no fixing stupid, and it is the "stupids" and their enablers that are overrunning the healthcare system and causing enormous financial hardships on their families. Don't be stupid. Jet the jab. Wear a mask properly.

Rockfish

gabrielshorn2013: go blow your horn somewhere else. I am not stupid, ignorant, afraid or uneducated about the vaccine. If fact, I never mentioned anything about the vaccine.

NewMarketParent

@Rockfish

Read up:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_contract

gabrielshorn2013

SMH...and I never called you stupid either. I said those are the core reasons for failure to do your civic duty by getting vaccinated. Grow some skin, Bub. This thread is about the vaccine, and if you're not talking about the vaccine, why did you respond? Did you get vaccinated? If yes, good for you and thanks! If not, why? Pick one of the three. I can help you with the first two, but you're on your own for the last.

NewMarketParent

@gabrielshorn2013

Watch as people who come in here spouting blatant lies and misinformation clutch their pearls and claim victim. It is a common tactic and part of their strategy to garner sympathy for their BS.

gabrielshorn2013

[thumbup][thumbup][thumbup] saogirl52!

Dwasserba

[thumbup]I know! Go saogirl!

mbv1

[thumbup][thumbup]

JustTrying

Thanks to people like the letter writer, I see no end in sight to COVID. I suppose that in this person's eyes, there will never be a "true" vaccine. I don't like my health insurance bankrolling the ignorant decisions of others. The anti-vaxers should go to the end of the line. Get the vaccination!

Reader

I believe by a "true vaccine" she is referring to the type of vaccine that has been in use for years, in which a protein associated with the virus, ior an attenuated version of the virus, is grown in the lab and then injected into the patient. This is a completely different vaccine than the COVID vaccine, in which mRNA is injected into the patient and the patient's cells manufacture the protein based upon the genetic directions in the mRNA. In the standard type of vaccine, the amount of protein is measured and known. There is no way to know how much of the protein is produced by an mRNA vaccine. It may differ person-to-person based upon body chemistry, amount of reverse transcriptase available, and in the case of the J&J vaccine which uses ann adenovirus vector to deliver DNA, whether the individual is sensitized to the viral vector (more people do have some sensitivity to Adenovirus5). There is a company in Maryland, Novavax, which is working on a traditional vaccine for COVID, which some people may feel more comfortable with due to years and years of safe usage. I think it is reasonable to question the mRNA vaccines since they have never before been used in a large-scale trial.

DickD

It would seem with billions of vaccine given there has  been plenty of tests!  Do you know anyone dying of the vaccine?https://www.deseret.com/coronavirus/2021/8/10/22618163/covid-deaths-vaccinated-data-how-many-die

The new data suggests 1,507 people (about 0.001%) of those fully vaccinated people died from COVID-19.

Meanwhile, 7,101 people of those fully vaccinated people (about 0.005%) were hospitalized from COVID-19.

https://www.bloomberg.com/graphics/covid-vaccine-tracker-global-distribution/

More Than 5.06 Billion ShotsGiven: Covid-19

Tracker In the U.S., 365 million doses have been administered  

Dwasserba

Wow, whiplash. I was so impressed then the last sentence disappointed me.

NewMarketParent

@Reader

mRNA is the culmination of decades of research. It is incredibly sad that people would rather take sheep de-wormer than trust science. Those same people have no problem buying a cell phone with a 4000mah battery which if shorted could explode next to their head (theoretically).

We live in a world of risk and people are saying that they would rather risk death, dismemberment (one of the possible side-effects of COVID), chronic illness (side-effect of COVID), ED (side-effect of COVID) than trust the same ideals that conquered Polio. I think those same people should get rid of all their technology because they simply don't deserve it.

Sometimes people's entire lives are meant to be a cautionary tale.

vjropp236

I work in the pharmaceutical and R&D field. My company is producing one of the vaccines. You do realize that mRNA has not been successful in humans yet for this type of virus, right? It is currently only used for things such as Ebola and Anthrax.

vjropp236

And when they released the Polio Vaccine for the first time so quickly it was a complete failure!

gabrielshorn2013

Really vjropp236? which company? Both of your posts are BS. You are correct in the mRNA vaccines were used for Ebola, and with some success, not so much for anthrax. I have worked to develop vaccines, and other biologics, for most of my career, including other approaches to both Ebola and anthrax. The Pfizer/BioNTech mRNA vaccine for CoViD-19 has been approved by FDA. I guess you missed that big news on Monday of this week. The Moderna mRNA vaccine is not far behind.

They both underwent extensive clinical trials; the same as those approved by FDA, except that the cohorts for the mRNA vaccines were 10X the normal size. So yeah, I'd say they are pretty successful as designed. The issue we are having now is one of antigenic drift with the variants. The epitopes are still recognized, but not as well. However, they will still keep you out of the hospital, or dying. As for your last post regarding the polio vaccine failing miserably, I assume that you are referring to the "Cutter Incident"? You need to know your vaccine history if you claim to be working in our industry. Those of us who are remember that incident well. It wasn't that the vaccine failed to prevent disease. It actually caused the disease because of inadequate attenuation of the actual poliovirus. if you really are in our industry, you will be very familiar with current Good Manufacturing Practices (cGMP). The inactivation process used in the Cutter incident was not validated as per GMP, and caused a huge improvement in vaccine manufacturing standards. That 1955 incident will not happen again for live virus vaccines. Thing is, you cite this as a reason to fear mRNA vaccines, yet the mRNA vaccine is not a live virus! It is a totally separate technology from the mRNA vaccines. It is not, and never has been alive, and cannot cause infection. Quit trolling.

For your edification:

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1383764/

gabrielshorn2013

Sorry reader, yes they have. All three under EUA have gone under more extensive phase III clinical trials than most "approved " vaccines by a factor of 10X. The CoViD-19 vaccines have been administered to billions of people, which is way more than most approved biologic products, including those that you see advertised on TV. There have also been fewer adverse effects.

chris

"...awaiting a safe, true vaccine to be developed..." Huh?

NewMarketParent

@chris

In today's news, people who were being disengenuous about waiting for FDA approval to take the vaccine have moved the goal posts yet again.

"I'll get that ball next time!" said Charlie Brown to Lucy while laying on his back.

chris

[thumbup][thumbup]

sevenstones1000

And YOU get some cattle deworming pills, and YOU get some cattle deworming pills and YOU get some……

You can’t fix stupid.

COVID: Hold my beer.

NewMarketParent

@sevenstones1000

The people who say they aren't sheep are taking sheep de-wormer.

I would laugh if it wasn't so freaking sad.

matthewboh

I'm at a loss for words. Such a sad excuse...

Greg F

Waiting....and while you are waiting around for a vaccine that is proven safe, you drive on unsafe highways and take part in many more activities that are far more dangerous than this BILLION+ DOSE vaccine that has been safe and now FDA approved has ever been. Safe? COVID has far worse odds for killing you or disabling you, and causing a mountain of bills you'll never be able to pay than what the odds are for something serious happening that isn't happening already in the general unvaccinated population. By the way, I have a safe bridge for sale if you want it. Bargain basement pricing. Guaranteed safe.

elmerchismo1

Waiting for a "safe, true vaccine."

I think I see where you're coming from, and it's not a position i'd encourage others to rely on. A "true" vaccine? What the heck is that?

NewMarketParent

@elmerchismo1

I'm guessing one that is delivered from up on high and has been blessed by Elderon, Mordor, Bilbo and Harry Potter.

It's magical thinking is what it is.

Greg F

[thumbup][thumbup]

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