Consider this letter yet another reason for removal of the Confederate flag, and a few other things as well.

Starting in April 1861 when the South started the Civil War, they raised arms against the United States and killed Americans. These acts made them traitors. Their flag represents traitors.

Naming Army bases after some of these traitors, as well some schools, is wrong, too.

Take your pick, or pick both: symbol of hate, symbol of traitors. It is the wrong symbol on both counts.

JAMES CAPPUCCILLI

Myersville

(96) comments

FrederickVeteran

I loan my last neighbor $500 after his mother ask me to bail him out he took down his confederate flag as token of his appreciation but I never got my money back.

phydeaux994

Battle Cry of Freedom: The Civil War Era by James M. McPherson. A Pulitzer Prize Winner. Critics call it the best history of Civil War times in one volume. Goes deeply not only about the war but about the politics of the time. Explains the myriad of political parties of the time (which bear no resemblence to the parties of today) and the political treachery that makes today's politics seem tame. And yes herbie, the Civil War was about slavery and its expansion into the West.

vicdavy

[thumbup]

des21

Or rather, its lack of ability to spread to the West. There were no more suitable places for the plantation economy to expand to (New Mexico? Not so much). They actually considered annexing Cuba as that would keep the balance in the Senate as the South could not keep pace with the massive Northern advantage in the House largely due to Irish immigration.

Interesting stuff and yes, slavery was certainly part of the equation.

phydeaux994

Read the book, then come back and revise your comment.

des21

I read it- years ago smart guy. I preferred This Hallowed Ground actually. Bruce Catton is a far better writer than McPherson.

I always felt it odd that those who assert that the war was solely about slavery never seem to acknowledge that 85% of the southern combatants owned no slaves. Facts do get in the way- even for historians with fancy degrees.

As I said, slavery was part of the story- not the whole story.

vicdavy

You can quote all the history you want but the Confederate Flag represents Slavery and Racism. So deflect on, but the Truth is Known!

des21

OK, that is certainly one point of view Vic. There are many others. Diversity is a wonderful thing.

BTW, I think slavery was a big issue- particularly for the northerners who went to war and viewed it as a moral crusade against the abomination of slavery. That is a view not many historians have fleshed out although McPherson, to his credit, did.

phydeaux994

"The slavery issue would probably have caused an eventual showdown between North and South in any circumstances. But it was the country’s sprawling growth that made the issue so explosive. Was the manifest destiny of those two million square miles west of the Mississippi River to be free or slave?".........from Battle Cry of Freedom

vicdavy

Miss the point much? The Confederate Flag represents Racism in 2015! While you all want to debate history the Morality is clear! It was wrong always! Conservative are always behind the curve!

des21

I don't disagree with that at all Phy and that is what my comment about the inappropriateness of expanding slavery to the Swest was about. The South was in a losing situation- economically (they were primary producers producing for the developed North) socially (No one wanted to immigrate to the South because of the plantation economy) and morally (obviously).

They recognized they were on the losing end and they wanted to opt out of the Union. Lincoln said they could not.

Vic I don't disagree that for many backward whites that is true. I would just submit that it may not be true for all whites. I lack your degree of certitude on most issues- this one included.

MAVRICKinc7

It's the end of my day. I've read every comment here, but have to wonder what, if anything has been changed, altered or contributed to history that we haven't ALL attempted to do for the past 300 years and without success? Aren't we just repeating ourselves, over and over again and coming up with the same result...hurt feelings, emotions that can't be contained and a sense of anger and hatred we still display on a daily basis against those with a different OPINION other than our own?

This story is about a 21 year old insane person who walks thru our everyday lives and remains unnoticed to the naked eye, just as you would find on any other corner of this Nation. His story includes sensationalized pictures that are giving rise to long held hatreds of the past and making our history no better than it is today where we claim black can make a difference, when all it does is to REMIND US what we were, and what we are and remain today. Simply said, and look around as much as you want, but what has changed in the past 150 years?

Has the Confederate Battle Flag changed anything in our history other than to be resurrected as a SYMBOL that REMINDS US where we've been and the price we are paying TODAY, as we did 150 years ago, to deprive people of their pride, dignanty and their American heritage.

Is ONE 21 year old psycho worth erasing history that still flows through the veins of those who fought that war then as well as now? All we are looking at now is a political fence that has long existed and scripted over the decades to get votes with our EXAGGERATED response to yet ANOTHER crisis event, but not to the fallen we have recently buried or the ones we will necessarily bury in the future, no matter what the color of their skin is; Black, White, Brown, Red or Yellow. Making a Flag go away is not going to stop or change US...ALL of US, from what we've been for centuries and will remain so until WE change. It's not the flag, it's US who remain the problem and REFUSE to come together for FEAR of the unknown, or a KNOWN part of our lives that we drew a line in the sand around ourselves against any prospect that crossing the line could possibly bring. Are WE not the same slaves we were and are today?

herbie

Lets see...

About 40 police officers were murdered last month (I do not recall Obama attending any of the funerals)

The gun death count continues to increase in Chicago (yet they have strict gun laws)

ISIS (that JV team Obama dismissed) rolls right along. And three terror attacks took placed that killed dozens of people

So maybe you libs are on to something

Perhaps banning the Confederate flag and removing all references of the Confederacy form the public view might solve these pressing issues

threecents

Another excellent example of Fox TV logic.

herbie

and you provide another excellent example of a liberal changing the subject and ducking valid questions

des21

I always get a giggle out of those that assert here and elsewhere that it is the GOP that plays racial politics. I often look at them and say, "you're kidding right?" This has been the currency of Democrat (ic?) politics since the early 70s.

Take note of Clinton's election strategy. Get out the base: Blacks, Latinos, Gays, single women. She is making no attempt to appeal to moderates or the majority of whites. Quite cynical and quite racist. Her advisors warn her not to speak of it as it shows that her message has nothing to offer anyone else- just quid pro quo politics as usual. What vision.[wink]

vicdavy

Man that is some convoluted logic,des? The GOP are the Dixiecrats of today. Why would any of the groups you mention vote against their best interest. Why should she try to appeal to whites? It is implicit among Progressives in general ,as well as,White Progressives that the GOP is the party of White Supremacy and the Plutocrats. I am for Bernie Sanders,but any Democrat is better then a Republican! So supporting nonwhites is racist? Far Out!

des21

I'm not saying its illogical Vic, I'm just saying its racial politics. They call it identity politics. Well, you can call it what you like is what it is- targeting people for what they are, not who they are.

Yes, targeting any race because of their race is racist. Is that difficult to understand? How so?

vicdavy

Racial politics was created by racists! It still exists! Denying the truth is delusional. Cynically saying it is "just political" is crap. Cynicism is Conservative Speak for "Whatever". Saying it is part of nature or being too PC is the lamest argument. No Idealism,"Be realistic stop trying to create world of where everyone is brothers and sisters". Now, that does not preclude humor and satire directed at our false and limited identities.Satire often reveals the truth,but only to the folks that are open-minded, self-deprecating and don't take the World Serious.

des21

Just to make sure I understand you Vic, are you saying that if a white votes in his/her best interest its racist but that if a non-white does it its logical?

Interesting dichotomous world view you have there.

des21

I don't think I wrote ANY of the things you accuse me of writing Vic. What the heck is going on with you?

vicdavy

The folks who vote Republican are voting against their own best interest,unless they are the top 1%.

des21

I feel that is patently false Vic. My wife and I make a nice living- no where close to the 1 %s but neither do I begrudge them their success. That is a very significant difference between you and I perhaps. I admire peoples' success. I don't hold it against them.

threecents

I was not changing the subject. I was pointing out that your conclusions do not follow the evidence you provided. It is not complicated - the confederate flag is a symbol of racism. It has been used as such by organization such as the KKK. It remains an offensive symbol today, not only of racism but of a group that took up arms against our country. That's the point of the letter,

threecents

Also, I this discussion was not about gun control, but are you really blaming Obama for gun violence in America? Only national gun control will significantly reduce gun violence, so you are right if you are saying Obama has not done enough to regulate guns. Darn states rights.

vicdavy

The problem is the 1% and the wealthy people are turning Democracy into Plutocracy! Money buys power and it's Not "For the People by the People",it's For the People who BUY the People. Is that hard to understand? So, I guess you support "Citizens United" and rank people by what they have Not who they are! I guess you'll be supporting "The Donald".

awteam2000

herbie baby..... Where did you get your police murder stats? I think you're off by about 32. Through yesterday there have been 63 police officers to die in the line of duty in 2015. 18 by gunfire ( 2 accidental), 11 heart attaches, 2 physical assaults and the rest involving motor vehicles.


https://www.odmp.org/search/year

http://www.breitbart.com/big-government/2015/05/05/president-obama-recognizes-nypd-police-officer-killed-in-the-line-of-duty/

des21

It is no doubt true that the CSA was an authoritarian monstrosity but it is also true that Lincoln was thought to be the "worst president ever" on both sides of the Mason-Dixon line. Ring a bell progressives? Sometimes doing what is unpopular at the time ends up being the morally right thing to do- even if you're not murdered.

I don't know, I'm white and 3/4's of my family came here in the 20th century. The other 1/4 came in the 1850s and did jobs people didn't want their property (slaves) doing. They were Irish and easily expendable.

I have great respect for the poor whites who fought that rich man's war and look to that flag as a symbol of pride. I also know why it causes such heartache amongst blacks. I honestly don't know what the answer is but to equate its showing as a "hate crime" is an obvious infringement of the first amendment to me.

"Look Away" is a very good book on the authoritarianism of the CSA.

vicdavy

Doing things that are unpopular with conservative is the Right thing to do. How about the poor boys who have fought rich man's wars in Vietnam and Iraq? How about a National Draft for all income levels? Remember? "Draft Dodging rich politicians(Cheney,Rumsfeld) never die young poor ones do." You can take your NeoCon hypocrisy and shove it. Welcome back from the beach.

herbie

and yet I am told I vilify people and treat them with disrespect

Only in the world liberals is logic, truth, and reason set aside and ignored

vicdavy

Another day of Herbie the Hater,lol.

des21

Jeez Vic, I missed you too![wink]

I actually support compulsory service for both men and women (of all income groups) between the ages of 18-20. Having taught college, I know that most 18 year olds are not ready to be there and I believe it might help build a national identity. We have so much that pulls us apart we need something to pull us together. (See S. Korea.) Could be military, Peace Corps, volunteering as a tutor, America Corps, etc.

All wars are rich men's wars, poor men's fight Vic, I thought that was understood. (This was even more true of the Civil War than wars that followed.) Even more so without the draft as a voluntary army is overwhelmingly comprised of the underclass and it is the fastest way (historically) for the poor to become middle class.

None of this of course means that a nation's military should not be used. Of course it should when necessary and proper. People will always disagree on when that is.

public-redux

Des, thanks for mentioning "Look Away" again. I had forgotten the title. I hope the beach trip was relaxing.

des21

Thanks Public, it was very nice. The kids were thrilled with the ocean.[smile]

public-redux

By the way, an excellent recent book about the divergent and changing attitudes in the south during the civil war is "Fall of the House of Dixie".

des21

I just put it on hold at the library. (I read the Casual Vacancy too. Enjoyed it, thanks.)

herbie

If the Civil War was all about slavery..................

Why was slavery still legal in the north all throughout the Civil War?

Why were there more freed black men and women in the South than in the North?

Why did the Emancipation Proclamation only free Southern slaves, and not Northern ones?

Why didn't the 13th Amendment get rolling until after the war?

Why was it still legal in Delaware, until they finally ratified it in 1901?

If the Civil War was about slavery, then only one side would have it. That's pretty simple logic, Vic. So since both sides had slaves, and there were more free in the South, how can it be about slavery?

Sallyforth

You have a lot of questions. I have one for you, why do you still support slavery? All of your questions support the continuance of slavery.

joelp77440

Why was slavery still legal in the north all throughout the Civil War? -- It was not, some states that did join union were slave states, Maryland being one but that ended during the EP.

Why were there more freed black men and women in the South than in the North? Actually there were very few and many that were free found their way back into slavery. In 12 Years a Slave, you saw the abductions that happen in the north, this also happen 10 fold in the south.

Why was it still legal in Delaware, until they finally ratified it in 1901? Legal yes, but except for a few estates Delaware had few to no slaves by the time of the civil war. They had not change the law the same way it is still illegal for more than three single women to live in a home in Virginia.

Watch the movie Lincoln and you will get a clearer few of the complex politics during the time.

des21

If you rely on Hollywood for your historical information you're in big trouble.

The Emancipation Proclamation freed the slaves in states that were in open rebellion against the Union- not in Kentucky and Missouri. Maryland was a special case because Lincoln had declared martial law here- liberal progressive that he was.[wink]

vicdavy


So des, Lincoln,"the Liberal Progressive he was",would, like any Liberal Progressive declare Martial Law. You sound like a Confederate sympathizer.

des21

No Vic, I'm actually a Constitution sympathizer. Lincoln trod on the Constitution to, in his words, save the Union. That's why people North and South (and particularly here in Maryland) thought he was "the worst president ever," (That's another of the mantras from your side that gives me a good laugh.)[wink]

I was making fun of progressives who champion him as one of their own. In one case (slavery) he was- and remember he famously said that "if I could win this war by freeing all slaves I would, but if I could win this war by freeing no slaves I would do that too" in every other area he wasn't much of a progressive. He was a pragmatist as most of our best presidents are.

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phydeaux994

A Country free of liberalism is called a dictatorship.

FrederickVeteran

I believe wealthy, educated and successful whites don't need to display the confederate flag like low achieving and less educated whites who often must rely on their genetic preference and entitlement and consider that as their most prized possession so naturally they would consider the confederate symbol of that racial supremacy scared.

herbie

The arrogance of that comment is not surprising. Most libs I know and interact with believe they are both morally and intellectually superior to everyone else

No wonder the southern state reject libs and liberalism. Look at the condescending and insulting comments made about them by libs

Sallyforth

I think that frederickveteran nailed it. When is the last time you saw a rebel flag flying from the back of Lexus? They seem to always be on the back of a Jeep or an old beat up Chevy pickup.

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DickD

Herbie, I have no problem with you having a Confederate flag. In fact, I kind of like
the idea, it helps me to identify people like you.

DickD

James, I would look at this slightly different. The issue was slavery and Southern way of life. Like the 1%, they were quite happy with it and chose not to be deprived. Anyone seeking to deprive was recipient of their hate. Although I do not agree with it, it is a natural human emotion.

Because they felt "white supremacy", they chose war. War always determines the winner of the war, not the issue. In this case, the winner resulted in what should have been from the start.

Slavery was started by Europeans to make money. Africans had enslaved the losers of their tribal wars for many generations. Now the white men would give them goods for their slaves and in Africa it probably was not easy to keep a slave forever, so taking goods in exchange of prisoners was logical.

In the U.S., during colonial times, there was a need for cheap labor and African slaves filled that need. During that process a supremacy of whites over blacks developed, not too surprising, as they did control the lives of blacks, refusing them the right to be educated. So, supremacy developed in the South and to some extent in the North.

But slaves ran away and willing northerners, Abolitionists helped them. Then laws were made to stop this, but it continued anyway. The result, harsh disagreement leading to war with the use of the Confederate flag. My point here is Southerners did not start out to be "traitors", they took actions that caused other actions.

After the Civil War the Confederate flag was used by the KKK and more hate developed.

FrederickVeteran

[thumbup]

vicdavy

We are going to Chop Down A Bigger Tree.

des21

"If you are the big tree, we are the small axe, ready to chop you down............"

Bob Marley

FrederickVeteran

I believe many democratic blacks privately support rioting and looting to address systemic disenfranchisement, conversely I believe the majority of whites in GOP support the confederate flag and its white supremacist, terror and slavery heritage.

GMrT

Herbie, yes, yes, yes, states rights. What you don't mention is that the South fought for states rights to have slavery.

It's been 150 years, let it go.

vicdavy

[thumbup]

threecents

[thumbup]

GMrT

Vic, I think maybe herbie is just trying to rile people. He might even work for the FNP to increase the number of posts. Then again, maybe you're right.

vicdavy

I don't think based on his past comments that he is employed by FNP. I agree he is a Troll,trying to stir things up.

vicdavy

The Racists are out in force trying to rationalize the Civil War as States Rights.LOL!
Hopeless Ignorance is hard to combat. Like the relative s of the victims I forgive them!

DickD

Vic, I have had this argument many times with Southerners. They have always insisted it was states rights, not slavery. Ridiculous, but they just bury their head in the sand and refuse to think logically.

herbie

Yea, why should libs ready history books? They are way to occupied with rewriting history then learning it

des21

I for one, have said nothing about states rights. The southerners felt that the union was a consultative and voluntary organization- not a mandatory one. They, like the anti-federalists felt that one could leave if one felt the terms of the agreement were no longer beneficial. They thought so and they seceded.

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FNP-reader

Guess you flunked history if you think that the Confederate Battle Flag does not represent the fight to preserve slavery.

FrederickVeteran

My ancestors were slaves and some were forced in the Confederate Army because the confederates didn't have the willingness, courage and fortitude to continue the fight and instead forced the same people many of them loathed, enslaved and terrorized to fight their battles for them. What honor is there in a white supremacist organization that required uneducated blacks to bail it out?

herbie

Slavery was an accepted practice back then. It's as simple as that. Libs wants to judge people THEN by today's standards. They have no concept of time and tries to use dishonest relevance to make their arguments.

Try explaining to someone born and raised in SC or GA in the 1820's slavery was bad when it's all they every knew. Try explaining to a kid NOW that living on their cell phones is stupid.

The South wanted the south to govern the South. Yet DC wanted to impose their will on them and they said no

Yet libs put on the "offended" act to try and rewrite history and remove something they claim "offends" them

Comment deleted.
threecents

Herb, Your side lost the fight against America. You are welcome to stay as our guest or leave. You even have full citizenship because we are generous, but remember that our country, except for a few sociopaths, celebrates the fact that your side lost the war.

DickD

Yes, Herbie, we elected a liberal Republican president, Abraham Lincoln. Go see his statue in D.C., being a Republican, you will like it, I do and I am a Democrat.

b1sellers

"Try explaining to someone born and raised in SC or GA in the 1820's slavery was bad when it's all they every knew. "

What BS. Owning and beating other people is wrong now and it was wrong then. I don't care if that was "all they knew" - they also knew what they were doing was brutal and they didn't care. They felt they were superior and had the right to brutalize, rape and murder people that they owned. Good Christians that they were.

copperminer

just something to think about. In this race to eradicate everything from our history as referenced to slavery, where will it end? I think there was a statement loosely quoted, those that forget history are bound to repeat it. There was more killing and mistreatment done to native Americans than was ever done in slavery. And yet how often do we actually make reparations for those ills?

Sallyforth

I don't think anyone wants to abolish the history of slavery, just the display of all of the symbolism employed by the treasonous South in an attempt to keep the proverbial wound from healing.

hazel

Uh, the South LOST the war! Let me repeat that for the less informed, the South LOST the war!

b1sellers

And they will not "rise again"

des21

They already have B1- fastest growing region in the US for decades. (At least since AC became widely available. Although the SWest gave them a run until the housing bubble exploded.)

Also, interestingly, the best integrated areas in terms of housing in the US. Elsewhere Blacks and Whites do not usually live side by side. In the South they do if for no other reason that the numbers are more equal and people are accustomed to each others' presence.

We Northerners are so sanctimonious sometimes and the facts simply don't support our sense of superiority on this issue.

b1sellers

"the best integrated areas in terms of housing in the US. Elsewhere Blacks and Whites do not usually live side by side. "

In my trips south I have not seen that. They actually don't even talk much or just say hi when they pass each other. The south is pretty segregated.

b1sellers

And by the way I am a native southerner that moved "north" to Maryland at the age of 13.

des21

The most segregated cities in America are in the North- most in the upper midwest although I believe Buffalo NY is still #1.

Maybe you left before these changes occurred?

b1sellers

I still go south - in fact I am heading to Florida Thursday evening. Blacks and whites generally do not live together or socialize together in the south that I know. I've seen and heard some really awful things that make me either have an argument or bite my tongue. I also go to Buffalo quite a bit. There is not the in your face racism there like the south - not in my experiences.

des21

Well, again B1, data is data. Check out HUD data on neighborhoods in cities. It is what it is.

I don't know much about Florida admittedly.

Reader1954

guess we got to tear down the Washington monument now because it was named after a slave owner, and Jefferson memorial etc.

threecents

There's that FOX TV logic system again. I think psychologists call it absolute thinking and consider it a mental handicap.

jwhamann

Chip 'em off Mt Rushmore, too

Georgia

Let me take this opportunity to promote Raise Your Battle Flag Day, tomorrow, June 28th. Check out the Virginia Flaggers Facebook page for more info. I'll be proudly flying mine in downtown Frederick!

Sallyforth

So what? What does that prove?

barbaradean8

proves their hateful thats all

barbaradean8

i'm using mine to clean my floors

Comment deleted.
barbaradean8

i doubt if you think,you know nothing at all.a true believer of fox noise lies

des21

20 dollar bills? Good for you Barb, you must be doing very well!

vicdavy

Replace it with the Alexander Hamilton Monument and the Martin Luther King Monument.

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vicdavy

Washington held over 2000 slaves and Jefferson had his share and his hypocrisy is incredible. He wrote a paper speaking of the inferiority of Africans. Hamilton was anti slavery,since he was born in the Caribbean,and grew up with Africans. He was by far the most Progressive of the Founders and should be revered,more then all other Founders! Don't take him off the $10 Bill take off Jackson the Genocidal President.

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