I was an election judge in Frederick County for the primary elections, and will be again in the general election. We are well-trained in advance, and the primary is excellent on-the-job training. Charles Hubbard left out a crucial fact in his letter proposing voter ID at the polls (Page A9, Monday, Aug. 2 edition of The Frederick News-Post). He wrote: “Someone ... verifies the same info, then goes in to vote under my name. I then come in verifying the same info. What happens?... their record would show I already voted. So, I lose my opportunity to vote?” No, Mr. Hubbard. The election judge undoubtedly told you (or should have) that in that case, you would be given a provisional ballot, which would be verified when all votes were counted at the end of the election. No one is denied the chance to vote. Provisional ballots are verified and counted, and sometimes they can determine the outcome of an election.

Sea Raven

(39) comments

mamlukman

Once again we go back to the three principles that drove Trump and his lackies:

1) "It's possible that...." Sure. Anything's possible. So sure, it's possible that some idiot tried to vote under someone else's name.

2) "Can you prove...." Can I "prove" with mathematical certainty that no fraud occurred in an election? Well, no, I can't. You can't prove a negative.

3) "People say that...." "People" say that there is voter fraud. I say that aliens abducted the woodchuck who lives in my woodpile. Prove me wrong!

These three principles lie behind every single Trump lie. They are nonsense.

Voter ID is nonsense. Look at other countries--some register babies at birth (to vote when they reach 18). Others register them automatically when they reach voting age. But most countries have a national ID. The US doesn't--none of this Gestapo "Show me your papers" nonsense. And that's OK.

Take a look at the Elections Canada website https://www.elections.ca/content.aspx?section=vot&dir=ids&document=index&lang=e and see what forms of ID Canada accepts. Virtually everything. And no one ever complains that Canadian elections are fraudulent. But of course Canadians have common sense.

MD1756

Actually you can prove a negative especially if you have a photo ID requirement.

threecents

Actually, no, a photo ID requirement would not prove there is no voter fraud. LoL

sevenstones1000

And how easy would it be to produce fake voter ids? Someone who is going to trouble of voting 10,000 times, wearing a different disguise each time so the ladies at check in won’t recognize him will have no trouble procuring 10,000 fake voter ids.

MD1756

It can if you compared all the IDs to the people showing up and ensuring that the number of people showing up equals the number of ballots cast at the polling place. Sort of like carding 100% at a bar or convenience store. You have problems when you don't do 100% but if you did 100% using real IDs or other state issued valid photo IDs it certainly would be very difficult to fraudulently vote whereas now it is much easier and it does happen. again I'm not saying any notional election was impacted but clearly based on recent elections/races it might not take many fraudulent votes to potentially change an outcome.

threecents

LoL, Just count the voters and count the ballots. You don't need ID cards for that.

MD1756

Threecents, it shouldn't be hard to realize you need the ID card to prove the person is who they say they are before they cast their ballot. After that, you don't need an ID card. And if it becomes easy to fake "real" IDs then we have much greater security problems than stopping a relatively few fraudulent votes. What I hate is to see people on both sides refuse to acknowledge the other side's position. Too many people go to the extremes and say never, always, etc. when never, always, etc. is rarely true. To say voter fraud never happens is to say your position that it does happen is invalid and that's wrong. People need to back away from their unrealistic extremes. One assumes that requiring an ID will stop people from voting and that is probably true. The question is will it stop more people from voting that it prevents in fraudulent votes? It would certainly address the fear that illegal immigrants are voting. People have two years in between election cycles to get an ID (which is useful for much more than just voting). Require an ID. If someone claims to have a legitimate problem with getting a real ID, help them get one, but the onus should be upon the citizen to get an ID whether or not they vote.

mrnatural1

Great comment mamlukman. [thumbup][thumbup]

DickD

Just what I said on Mr. Hubbard's LTE. His ignorance knows no bounds.

pdl603

The LTE makes zero sense. There are now two votes from the same individual. Honestly, is there going to be some reconciliation effort performed? Time to get in line with most other developed nations and require citizens to show proof of identity prior to casting a vote. If it is good enough for the European Union, then it is good enough for the USA.

Hayduke2

PDL- I'll ask you once again, was the 2020 election stolen or was it legit??

shiftless88

c'mon, piddle. Answer the question. Yes or no?

TrekMan

Exactly the point - what happens to the first "imposter" ballot? That's never answered.

mamlukman

If two people claimed the same identity and there were two votes cast OF COURSE there would be a reconciliation. They would investigate who was the correct voter and throw out the other vote.

But how often does this happen? According to a study by the Wash. Post in 2014, there were 31 cases of impersonation fraud over 14 years, 2000-2014. That out of 1+ billion votes. You can do the math. Are 31 cases over 14 years worth worrying about? Maybe to you, but not to a reasonable person. https://www.brennancenter.org/sites/default/files/analysis/Briefing_Memo_Debunking_Voter_Fraud_Myth.pdf

threecents

[thumbup]Mam

mrnatural1

Thanks Mam, gotta love stats. [thumbup]

MD1756

More importantly would be the prosecution of the one who voted fraudulently but since there was not picture ID, how would they identify the criminal. Once again, my dead grandmother allegedly voted in upstate NY in the early 2000s when she was/ would have been over 100 (she died 1 1/2 months after turning 100 and the election was later that year. A simple picture ID would have prevented that.

public-redux

How does one present a photo ID when voting by mail?

Pro-Choice/Privileged W. Woman

Very carefully… ..?

MD1756

Simple. You could be required to do so when you request a mail in ballot or you could be required to have a notary stamp the ballot (they'll require a photo ID and are available all over and are free).

threecents

MD1756, neither of those are simple or necessary.

Hayduke2

No MD, your " simple" response is anything but. In search of a solution to a non-existent problem. We should be making it easier for people to vote once they have registered, not harder. And what of the 95 year old who voted for 70 years - you will now force them to either use technology or add a burden onto their ability to vote?

public-redux

MD, I’m still not clear how one presents a photo ID when voting by mail. Are you saying people should mail in their ID when requesting a ballot?

Let’s use your grandmother as an example. I gather she was living in some sort of assisted living facility. She wants to request a mail in ballot. How does she present an ID?

MD1756

To get a notary stamp you have to show a photo ID it is simple. The Notary can then notarize the ballot. My grandmother was in skilled nursing care starting at about 98. Because of a number of TIAs she was really no longer capable of making informed political decisions and certainly would not have requested a mail in ballot. I don't know if she allegedly voted by a mail in ballot or allegedly in person. The letter just thanked her for voting (and she was dead by the time she would have requested a mail in ballot or voted in person. Either way, she allegedly voted.

public-redux

MD, I understand what notaries do. I used to be one. My question is how someone of limited mobility gets to a notary or how a notary gets to them. Or, alternatively, how the voter gets to the government office to request a mail-in ballot, which was your other solution. Do elections officials make house calls?

gary4books

Frederick voters who have registered with ID answer questions and sign their information. That is the proof - their signature.

MD1756

If you know the person's birthday (and many people put it up on Facebook (I do not), and if you know their address, you can vote as that person. If someone is going to fraudulently vote having a requirement to sign someone else's name won't stop them.

threecents

I guess most people don't think it is worth risking jail, just so they might be able to vote twice.

gary4books

[beam][thumbup][thumbup]

jsklinelga

Sea Raven,

Thanks for your community service. Interesting analysis. What happens to the vote that was cast, supposedly not legitimately? In a super close race would there lengthy investigation? How easy would it be for someone to steal someone's simple identity and not be caught by the actual voter voting?

This is just one example of a possible stolen vote. Would not things be simplified by having proof of identity which is required in so many other areas of society? Just imagine someone saying they are not going to vote and gives someone else their basic info No harm .right?.

It is curious why you would not want a secure election.

phydeaux994

The 2020 Presidential Election was the most secure Election in American History jsk, according to the experts. No, I don't know their names. Prove otherwise with some verifiable facts. It is curious why you don't believe that.

threecents

JSK, You have been told many times that many people would have trouble getting the required ID to vote. My elderly mother - who has a lot of resources - recently had trouble getting a MD Real ID. If she hadn't had a recently expired passport and a nurse to help her, I'm not sure she would have pulled it off. (She needed the Real ID to get a prescription pain medication.) Thank goodness she can still vote by mail, despite the likes of you.

Hayduke2

JSK - I'll ask you once again - Was the 2020 election stolen or was it legit??

hugvj

Gee, Hayduke, I wonder why he’s not answering?

threecents

Trump still insists he won not only the electoral vote but the popular vote. I would like to say that most of us know that those are just a couple of Trump's many alternative facts - which is a terrific term. I think Kellyanne came up with that term of art, though no doubt Trump claims it as his own, just as he claims he is the originator of Craig Silverman's term, "fake news".

shiftless88

Actually, what if they just stole their ID and voted under their name with the ID. People do this to buy booze all the time. So your concept of what is needed has no basis in reality. Again, the risk vs reward for trying to "steal" someone's vote is way out of whack and is therefore extremely rare.

DickD

And you have evidence that there needs to be an investigation? Why do you insist on causing a problem when none exists, Nelga?

gary4books

We have security now.

gary4books

JSK = Our elections are secure now. Why fix that which is NOT broken?

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